Ever been thrown out of a story by a reference?

[Allyn Gibson]

I know I'll likely regret asking, but what is the "21-bun salute scene"?

Ah, here we go. Google is our friend. Straight from the keyboard of PAD:

You can thank Paramount for that one.

Paramount gutted several key threads out of the book, including an entire sequence where Calhoun and Shelby got into a practical joke war.

In book six, while Shelby was still in sickbay, she was slightly delirious from her head injury and was cheerfully saying, "Look at all the pretty bunnies! Bunnies everywhere!" (An in-joke reference to "Space Cases," by the way, but we won't go into it.) Calhoun subsequently created a fake computer-generated transmission which Shelby received on the bridge: Captain Binky and the crew of the U.S.S. Hutch, who had come to commend Shelby on her bravery and quick thinking under extraordinarily difficult circumstances, and present her with their highest honor: A 21-Bun salute.

It was all fun and a bit silly and Paramount hated it and ordered it cut, along with the rest of the joke war, and the true nature of the Prometheans.

But apparently one reference to Captain Binky slipped through.

It was also Paramount's determination to forbid any mention of Ensign Janos as being a Mugato. One of those slipped through, however, so now Janos is, in fact, a Mugato.

I am starting to get a bit alarmed, though, that after leaving us alone for the first four books (to great success with the fans) they're starting to choke-hold us.

PAD

 

[JoeZhang]

Not liking someone's writing is pretty much the same as holding the opinion that they are a bad writer.

If they were truly "a bad writer" then they wouldn't be getting very much success. "Bad" writers rarely get their manuscripts out of the slush piles. Most published writers (not counting self-published ones) have written well enough to cause their publishers and editors to have faith in their writing abilities, or at least in their celebrity (which may garner them some sales).

and then some writers are good and then go down the shitter - that's how I see PAD, I like his early stuff but his trek stuff seems to get worse and worse - he's like John Byrne in comics - someone who was great then good then "do they still publish this guy?"

 

[Therin of Andor]

As someone who has a disclaimer stating "Entire post is personal opinion", I would have thought you would apply this to other people as well...

I do. I'm glad you note the irony. I was told over on Psi Phi last week that I was wrong to not make it very clear whenever I state something as personal opinion. I would have thought all posts by fans were personal opinion.

Today I was trying to help the other poster understand why it was now being pointed out him, by others. My pointing this out has nothing to do with whether I agree with him or not.

 

[Csalem]

Not sure of it counts as an in-joke, but the only reference that I can recall that took me out of the story was the section where McCoy met Benny Russell in Crucible:McCoy. I started to think how it would be possible and then got confused. In the end I sped up my reading to move onto the next section in an otherwise enjoyable book.

 

[TheAlmanac]

Frankly, I can't imagine that this was the first time Starfleet would have encountered a name in an alien language that means something completely different in a human language. What happened the first time a Starfleet ship encountered an alien named Phuuq? Or what if Picard's last name happens to be the most vile curse in an alien language, thus upsetting a delicate first contact situation?

The problem, Ian, that I had with it is that it was a juvenile, immature joke. And completely unnecessary.

It's funny that you should mention that in this particular thread, with all of its talk about PAD's writing, because IIRC, The Rift contained a reference to snafu and fubar being Tellarite insults, so this isn't exactly a new development on David's part.

I can't look into PAD's mind, of course, but if you ask me (and you haven't, as Doctor McCoy would say), it sort of seems like he's treating his Trek novels less seriously because he takes that universe less seriously than he used to...

Personally, I don't have any problems with in-jokes on the whole--like all comedy, it's all about the execution and not the concept, so it either works or it doesn't. PAD's Trek work has gotten more campy, and YMMV on whether that works or not, but it might be because he sees the current state of the franchise as being campier than it was before.

 

[David R. George III]

Not sure of it counts as an in-joke, but the only reference that I can recall that took me out of the story was the section where McCoy met Benny Russell in Crucible:McCoy.

I certainly didn't consider it an in-joke myself. In fact, I gave the matter a great deal of thought before ultimately deciding to go with Benny as the visitor trekking through Hayden, South Carolina. I'm sorry it didn't work for you.

 

[BrotherBenny]

I thought that particular reference was quite good, and made me think about alternate realities. Who knows, the pah'wraiths may have deliberately sent Sisko a vision of that alternate universe to convince him to give up. That particular universe is a bleak one with Pearl not happening (it didn't, did it? I'm not misremembering?).

 

[David R. George III]

I thought that particular reference was quite good, and made me think about alternate realities. Who knows, the pah'wraiths may have deliberately sent Sisko a vision of that alternate universe to convince him to give up. That particular universe is a bleak one with Pearl not happening (it didn't, did it? I'm not misremembering?).

Glad you liked it. And no, in that timeline, the Japanese did not attack the U.S. Naval Station at Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941.

 

[Defcon]

My 0,02c about Benny's cameo in Crucible: McCoy

I thought that Benny's appearance took some impact away from the sequence. It was a very good and powerful sequences, but I think the usage of another series' (possibly fictional (in-universe)) charcter actually drew the attention away from the scene's message a bit. I would have prefered if it would have been an original character personally.

 

[David R. George III]

^ Yeah, I knew that there would likely be some readers who objected to the inclusion of the character in those scenes. It took a great deal of consideration before I finally decided to go ahead with it. As we see in this thread, it did indeed work for some readers, but not for others. C'est la vie.

 

[acappellasaurus]

Sorry for my delay in replying again to this thread - was out of town this weekend.

I am pretty sure I posted some time back when "A Time To..." came out, and the author replied saying that the Parminder reference was indeed supposed to conjure the image of Parminder Nagra. I keep feeling like there was some sort of Chuck Norris reference in that same away team...maybe a Braddock or something like that coupled with the idea of being missing in action. I dunno.

In "Articles", the in-jokes I thought I was seeing were West Wing related....wasn't there a character named "Toh-beh" or something?

 

[David Mack]

^ Yes, I'll confirm that Ensign Parminder was an homage to Parminder Nagra. The Braddock character, however, was inspired by the name of a major street in my in-laws' town of residence in Virginia; no Chuck Norris connection was intended or should be inferred.

 

[TGTheodore]

And frankly, there really needs to be more cartoon references in Trek.

Really? Then why did Keith reject my proposal for The Magilla Gorilla Nebula novel?

Actually, in-jokes and references are a delicate balance. Lighter scenes tend to lend themselves to them better. Still, whenever I do a deliberate "mini-homage" in whatever I'm writing (be it fiction, stage, film or music), I sit there, laugh for a moment, and come back to it after a good night's sleep to see if it should stay.

Balance, Daniel-San.

--Ted

 

[donners22]

Personally, I don't have any problems with in-jokes on the whole--like all comedy, it's all about the execution and not the concept, so it either works or it doesn't. PAD's Trek work has gotten more campy, and YMMV on whether that works or not, but it might be because he sees the current state of the franchise as being campier than it was before.

Considering that 15 years ago he had an Enterprise security team attacked by a "plush yellow bear (and associates)", this is hardly a new development.

Besides, it's hardly limited to his Trek work. The Sir Apropos series is three books of groan-out-loud humour (aside from a wonderful D&D spoof).

You know what you are getting with PAD.

 

[William Leisner]

And frankly, there really needs to be more cartoon references in Trek.

Really? Then why did Keith reject my proposal for The Magilla Gorilla Nebula novel?

Because market research indicated only one small girl would ever show any interest in buying it.

(Somebody pass me my effing Geritol...)

 

[cardinal biggles]

Personally, I don't have any problems with in-jokes on the whole--like all comedy, it's all about the execution and not the concept, so it either works or it doesn't. PAD's Trek work has gotten more campy, and YMMV on whether that works or not, but it might be because he sees the current state of the franchise as being campier than it was before.

Considering that 15 years ago he had an Enterprise security team attacked by a "plush yellow bear (and associates)", this is hardly a new development.

Besides, it's hardly limited to his Trek work. The Sir Apropos series is three books of groan-out-loud humour (aside from a wonderful D&D spoof).

You know what you are getting with PAD.

I have to admit, I loved the Winnie the Pooh reference in Q-Squared. I like most of PAD's in-jokes (when I get them; I'm not a big comics reader, so a lot of his references to Marvel writers and editors escape me).

To be honest, there've only been two in-jokes in Trek Lit that have ever taken me out of the novel. The first was Data's line in Let There Be Dragons about learning how to use a bullwhip from the Indiana Jones holodeck program. The other was the chapter in one of the Excalibur trilogy novels where Q transports Kebron and McHenry to a parallel dimension where Looney Tunes physics apply, and McHenry recognizes it as such.

 

[AJBryant]

Do yourself a favor. Don't ever go to see a Bertolt Brecht play.

Mwa hahahaha!!

Good call.


Tony

 

[donners22]

I know I'll likely regret asking, but what is the "21-bun salute scene"?

Ah, here we go. Google is our friend. Straight from the keyboard of PAD:

You can thank Paramount for that one.

Paramount gutted several key threads out of the book, including an entire sequence where Calhoun and Shelby got into a practical joke war.

In book six, while Shelby was still in sickbay, she was slightly delirious from her head injury and was cheerfully saying, "Look at all the pretty bunnies! Bunnies everywhere!" (An in-joke reference to "Space Cases," by the way, but we won't go into it.) Calhoun subsequently created a fake computer-generated transmission which Shelby received on the bridge: Captain Binky and the crew of the U.S.S. Hutch, who had come to commend Shelby on her bravery and quick thinking under extraordinarily difficult circumstances, and present her with their highest honor: A 21-Bun salute.

It was all fun and a bit silly and Paramount hated it and ordered it cut, along with the rest of the joke war, and the true nature of the Prometheans.

But apparently one reference to Captain Binky slipped through.

It was also Paramount's determination to forbid any mention of Ensign Janos as being a Mugato. One of those slipped through, however, so now Janos is, in fact, a Mugato.

I am starting to get a bit alarmed, though, that after leaving us alone for the first four books (to great success with the fans) they're starting to choke-hold us.

PAD

Ah, I always wondered at the Captain Binky reference. I'd assumed it was to do with Double Time, since that was the only New Frontier I've not read.


Given that references to anal rape can get into a Trek book these days, I think the appearance of rabbits would be the least of the editors' problems...

 

[ATimson]

Given that references to anal rape can get into a Trek book these days, I think the appearance of rabbits would be the least of the editors' problems...

Note that the book in question came out over a decade ago. Plenty of time for a policy shift.

(I assume that said rape reference is from Vanguard? )

 

[Defcon]

Given that references to anal rape can get into a Trek book these days, I think the appearance of rabbits would be the least of the editors' problems...

Note that the book in question came out over a decade ago. Plenty of time for a policy shift.

(I assume that said rape reference is from Vanguard? )

Ghost-Walker came out over a decade ago , and IIRC there also was a rape scene (at least heavily implied).