Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 1x03 - "Ghosts of Illyria"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
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Eugenics encompassed selective breeding, selective sterilisation, and significant social engineering. Social engineering (as state propaganda) was key to getting societal buy-in of what was little more than scientific-sounding bigotry against "feeblemindedness", "infirmities of body and character", deformities, etc. Race inevitably fell into the "etc" bin. Had modern genetic engineering sciences been available to the American, Japanese, Soviet, and Nazi programmes, I have complete confidence they would have been used enthusiastically.
@cooleddie74 is half right about the dialog in "Space Seed."
Kirk does say [http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/24.htm]:
KHAN: A new life, a chance to build a world. Other things I doubt you would understand.
KIRK: Why? Because I'm not a product of controlled genetics?
KIRK: Why? Because I'm not a product of controlled genetics?
But there are also these lines, one by Spock and one by Kirk:
SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid=1990s was the era of your last so-called World War.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.
SPOCK: Of course. Your attempt to improve the race through selective breeding.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.
SPOCK: Of course. Your attempt to improve the race through selective breeding.
SPOCK: I note he's making considerable use of our technical library.
KIRK: Common courtesy, Mister Spock. He'll spend the rest of his days in our time. It's only decent to help him catch up. Would you estimate him to be a product of selective breeding?
SPOCK: There is that possibility, Captain. His age would be correct. In 1993, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over forty nations.
KIRK: Common courtesy, Mister Spock. He'll spend the rest of his days in our time. It's only decent to help him catch up. Would you estimate him to be a product of selective breeding?
SPOCK: There is that possibility, Captain. His age would be correct. In 1993, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over forty nations.
Eugenics was understood in the 1960s and is understood today to mean the discredited practice of selective breeding for the purpose of increasing desirable characteristics. So, yes, clearly the original intent of "Space Seed" was that the supermen had been created by selective breeding, and "controlled genetics" was intended to be understood in the context of selective breeding.
It was TWOK that first explicitly said Khan was a product of "genetic engineering."
The premise that the supermen would have been created using only the principles of eugenics is dated, was dated in the 1980s and merited this retcon.
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An example of a retcon that doesn't completely overturn the entire concept of Khan, just makes his creation and rise more sensible. No dates changed, no outcomes. Just the details of the road map.
I have no patience for people who claim "canon violations" or that nuTrek (including SNW) is awful because the sets are different.
Continuity in Star Trek was always fluid.
Be glad that they're honoring the important notes and the storytelling hits of the best star trek, as opposed to a travesty like "Haven" or "Code of Honor"
Continuity in Star Trek was always fluid.
Be glad that they're honoring the important notes and the storytelling hits of the best star trek, as opposed to a travesty like "Haven" or "Code of Honor"
I have a lot of trouble understanding M'Benga too. Next time I'm going to have to turn on the subtitles. He seems to be semi-whispering most of the time, plus the accent.
A really enjoyable episode, I'm glad that they got back to episodic storytelling ... it works so much better!
So, Number One is an Illyrian now? Please, no more retcons! Bad enough that we have a descendant of Khan on board ... although I like the actress and her performance. Unlike Christine Chapel ... blondes with black eyebrows are causing me an allergic reaction, and everything else about her seems completely off. The looks, the acting ... wrong actress for the job, in my opinion. Not just for this role, but for every role!
So, Number One is an Illyrian now? Please, no more retcons! Bad enough that we have a descendant of Khan on board ... although I like the actress and her performance. Unlike Christine Chapel ... blondes with black eyebrows are causing me an allergic reaction, and everything else about her seems completely off. The looks, the acting ... wrong actress for the job, in my opinion. Not just for this role, but for every role!
Glad the site was useful.
First off - I haven't seen any of these shows, they're not available to me.
What I would like to comment on is that gene editing and genetic manipulation wasn't even a sci-fi thing back in the 60s. The closest was eugenics, the slow and patient selective breeding of lifeforms for specific traits.
So, as far as this Old One is concerned, changing the terminology in the script from a post-war one to a modern one that is completely understandable to the current audience is fine by me.
Might have been my imagination, but the Illyrians took on vaguely humanoid shapes at times.
Retconned from what? What did we know about her background prior to this episode?
That she was a woman who looked human, was analytical and was second-in-command aboard the Enterprise. Other than that, almost nothing. And I don't count novels and comics as canon.
Retcons don't always change existing information, they also add new information.
But yeah I don't see this as bad.
Agreed completely.
You're Chrissie?
Yes, those transcripts are invaluable for searching and quoting dialog. I can't say how much I appreciate the effort. Thank you.
Then all episodes that expand upon a character's background are retcons. Kirk on Tarsus IV, retcon. Spock has a wife, retcon. McCoy dated Nancy Crater, retcon.
Gave this one an eight. Pacing seemed fine to me, I was excited to see how each character would react to the mystery as the plot went on.
One thing I really liked: Pike defends Una, but says she defies all stereotypes. I remember thinking "well, that's not really equality, Chris," and was happy when Una said just that in her deleted log entry.
Excited to see M'Benga's arc continue. Perhaps he leaves Enterprise briefly to save his daughter and we see a glimpse of Boyce, who knows.
Was anyone else curious about Rebecca Romijn pronouncing his name "muh-benga" though? I kinda thought it was "mmm-benga". Small thing but just curious.
Liked seeing the lower-deckers' shared quarters. Not as bad as the hallway on the Cerritos (many decades later!), but is, after all, the "flagship of Starfleet."
Hopeful the La'an-Una develops further, I'm sure it will.
Pike-Spock B-plot was just fine, not great. Some good Spock work from Ethan Peck, though.
One thing I really liked: Pike defends Una, but says she defies all stereotypes. I remember thinking "well, that's not really equality, Chris," and was happy when Una said just that in her deleted log entry.
Excited to see M'Benga's arc continue. Perhaps he leaves Enterprise briefly to save his daughter and we see a glimpse of Boyce, who knows.
Was anyone else curious about Rebecca Romijn pronouncing his name "muh-benga" though? I kinda thought it was "mmm-benga". Small thing but just curious.
Liked seeing the lower-deckers' shared quarters. Not as bad as the hallway on the Cerritos (many decades later!), but is, after all, the "flagship of Starfleet."
Hopeful the La'an-Una develops further, I'm sure it will.
Pike-Spock B-plot was just fine, not great. Some good Spock work from Ethan Peck, though.
The idea that selective breeding would result in superhuman abilities by less than 30 years after the show began was ludicrous. I also note that in that TOS episode the Eugenics War and WW3 were one and the same.
No, that's not what a retcon is. The whole idea of a retroactive continuity change is that it changes something previously established. Adding information in a void doesn't count.
At least the Cerritos' lower deckers don't sleep on some piece of machinery. They should stop complaining!
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Well, that sucks. Why aren't they available?
Your site is a greater resource to Trek fans than just about anything else online.
Define "now". DC Fontana established that Number One was Illyrian in 1989.
She had like 4 minutes of airtime in 55 years, not sure we knew much of anything about her in canon. Definitely came from a novel, though, as the second they mentioned the race at the beginning, it rung that bell in my head (Number One is Illyrian, isn't she?). Don't see that as in any way bad, expounding on the tv show by lifting good bits from 55 years of other material they have available. All we've seen of this crew is a failed pilot recycled into a TOS episode later on, couple bits of episodes from DIS, and a few Short Trek bits. Plenty of room to add bits to this crew without "ruining" things. Una's (name also lifted from the novels) background came from the same places that gave Uhura and Sulu first names, and no one choked on those. It's ok.
And I'm also good with visuals being updated, to a point. Slavish devotion to 1960s special effects and sets would be silly (but a fun nod). Perfectly ok accepting that in my head, the Enterprise always looked like this, Gene just couldn't afford to show it to us. In fact, things usually get WORSE when they try and explain the budget/tech upgrades as things that really happened. MUCH prefer to imagine Klingons always looked like Worf rather than try to twist things around until the Augment stuff makes sense. But the DIS Klingons were just stupid, went too far. (That plus their change in story didn't fit, but lots of issues there)
