One of the most linear time travel episodes in Trek was "Visionary(DS9)" and even it had confusing moments and gave us the legendary line uttered by two different Miles O'Briens at the same time: "I hate temporal mechanics."
Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 2x04 - "Watcher"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
He remembers a former life. Damn karma.
TOS "The Naked Time," although perhaps confusing in other ways, was pretty straightforward when it came to the parts about time travel. The ship went back in time, and ... it just sailed on through space to next week's episode without any paradoxes.*
* - As far as we know, of course.
* - As far as we know, of course.
Um, it's only been mentioned like 100 times. Maybe 1000.
Lack of sleep?Here's what I didn't like about the Guinan scene:
- Guinan didn't feel like the character Guinan. Exacerbated by the fact that she was understandably recast. Just not the same character.
- Picard should have briefly said something about Time's Arrow not occurring. Him not being confused momentarily makes it appear the writers weren't aware of it.
- What's up with the 10 Forward Street thing? It's not like this Guinan knows about 10-Forward on 1701-D nor did she have this bar first and name the one on the Ent. Makes no sense whatsoever.
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Or she likes the name.
Er, no, it only required one chart. The second chart was for the Coda novel trilogy.
Anyway, all this really didn't require one chart. You can reconcile any problems you want by just saying
But what they DID consider a failure was when a lot of the audience just didn't get something -- when the creative team thought they had transmitted a piece of information, and large numbers of people just didn't get it. That was when feedback would make them feel like they failed. IIRC, all the other showrunners participating agreed with that.
So, by that standard, this timeline plotting was a failure. Yes, yes, I know we have many here eager to crow about their brilliance in getting it immediately, but I'd say there's been at least as many, and probably more, posts baffled by it.
I dunno. The TrekBBS is not really a representative sample of the general audience, and I question what percentage of the audience really remembers or cares about Guinan meeting Picard in 1893 in a mediocre TNG episode that aired when George Bush Sr. was still president.
I didn't have time to read the millions of posts.Um, it's only been mentioned like 100 times. Maybe 1000.
Here's what I didn't like about the Guinan scene:
Ok, it's really the first point that bugged me the most. But the 2nd point suggests that the writers didn't know the origin of the name 10-Forward.
- Guinan didn't feel like the character Guinan. Exacerbated by the fact that she was understandably recast. Just not the same character.
- What's up with the 10 Forward Street thing? It's not like this Guinan knows about 10-Forward on 1701-D nor did she have this bar first and name the one on the Ent. Makes no sense whatsoever.
I'm worried this is going to follow the same pattern as season one, where the first few episodes are good and have me enthusiastic, but I find it less and less enjoyable as the season goes on. Because this one was not good. Just a bunch of moving characters around, wheel-spinning and empty cliffhangers. Someting like Picard and Guinan meeting in the past should feel a lot more compelling than this (she just didn't feel like Guinant.) Maybe everything will tie together perfectly in the finale and that will enhance episodes like this. That would be the opposite of season one.
I liked the Jurati/Borgi Queen stuff the most because it felt like it actually had some substance to it and the actors work well together.
I liked the Jurati/Borgi Queen stuff the most because it felt like it actually had some substance to it and the actors work well together.
I read something in one of the Best of Treks that argued the universe would eventually be filled with Enterprises because of the implosion. Every 71 hours an Enterprise would regress in time, only to be replaced by another Enterprise entering standard orbit. World without end. Amen.
Guinan did NOT travel to 1893 Earth. Guinan travelled to Earth sometime before 1893 and has been there since. She did not time travel back to 1893.
I assumed she left since 1893. Seems odd that she’s still there on 2024.
Or Guinan visits Picard on the Enterprise-D between Seasons 1 and 2 and says, "What you need on this ship is a bar. We could put on Deck Ten, right up the front, and call it '10 Forward', just like old times."
(BTW, the similar area on the Enterprise-A, seen in ST V, with the wooden ship's wheel, was supposedly called "5 Forward", but not mentioned in a script.)
She may have been travelling back and forth for centuries.
Weeell, I can sort of understand that, but it puts you behind in the discussion.I didn't have time to read the millions of posts.
But, yeah, that point had been brought up and explained many times.
You know, it's perfectly alright to love the show but admit not everything adds up.
Perhaps but I assumed she would have travelled to other planets before going home, which I think is in the delta quadrant so it would take decades to get back.
I thought the Borg Queen/Jurati stuff is the clear highlight of the episode. And the only thing that saves it.
I am not sure I buy the whole explanation of why Guinan does not recognize Picard. Merits aside, it was distracting during the watching of the episode, off putting. Picard should have been surprised and explained it to the audience.
As to the merits, I guess I view the alternate timeline starting from the point at which whatever Q did to change things, that Picard must now undo. Prior to that divergence, things should be the same timeline.
I guess the official explanation is that once the change begat the Confederation, there is no Enterprise (no Data?), and no Time's Arrow in that reality. Even if you travel backwards, it is still altered. Or at least the parts of the past that were affected by the TNG furure, which now does not exist. It is why I don't like the time travel stuff that much.
The Raffi/Seven stuff was downright poor. At least Raffi. Borderline idiotic. Raffi was a master manipulator in S1 and now she pisses everyone off in every interaction? Yeah, Elnor is dead (maybe), get your sh!t together. And Seven does not put her foot down? Please. The car chase was silly. How do they even know how to drive at all? The angle on 7 finding her humanity is kind of cool, as was the shout to Voyage Home on the bus.
The Rios stuff was better this week, because he is not acting stupidly. I have zero problem with them going heavy at ICE. Those shots are well-deserved and long overdue. People traveling back to our time from theirs should be taken aback a bit.
Laris & Q stuff look interesting.
I gave it a 7, but that was probably a smidge too high. I don't like serialized Trek as much. There is rarely a sense of satisfaction with the episodes because the story is rarely completed.
I am not sure I buy the whole explanation of why Guinan does not recognize Picard. Merits aside, it was distracting during the watching of the episode, off putting. Picard should have been surprised and explained it to the audience.
As to the merits, I guess I view the alternate timeline starting from the point at which whatever Q did to change things, that Picard must now undo. Prior to that divergence, things should be the same timeline.
I guess the official explanation is that once the change begat the Confederation, there is no Enterprise (no Data?), and no Time's Arrow in that reality. Even if you travel backwards, it is still altered. Or at least the parts of the past that were affected by the TNG furure, which now does not exist. It is why I don't like the time travel stuff that much.
The Raffi/Seven stuff was downright poor. At least Raffi. Borderline idiotic. Raffi was a master manipulator in S1 and now she pisses everyone off in every interaction? Yeah, Elnor is dead (maybe), get your sh!t together. And Seven does not put her foot down? Please. The car chase was silly. How do they even know how to drive at all? The angle on 7 finding her humanity is kind of cool, as was the shout to Voyage Home on the bus.
The Rios stuff was better this week, because he is not acting stupidly. I have zero problem with them going heavy at ICE. Those shots are well-deserved and long overdue. People traveling back to our time from theirs should be taken aback a bit.
Laris & Q stuff look interesting.
I gave it a 7, but that was probably a smidge too high. I don't like serialized Trek as much. There is rarely a sense of satisfaction with the episodes because the story is rarely completed.
Ah, but which old times?
Remember, the timeline we're seeing now is one where she didn't meet Picard in the 1800s and she seems more disgruntled. We know there are differences between this changed timeline and the normal timeline. It's not a given that she even has the same bar in the normal timeline. She's a very different character.
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