Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 2x04 - "Watcher"

[SolarisOne]

Y'know what? Imma just imagine Whoppi delivering the lines from this episode. It works.

 

[Photoman15]

but if Picard didn’t go back, wouldn’t that also mean Confederation Kirk/Spock never went back 1986 so the Trek 4 reference shouldn’t have happened.

Somebody from the future came back to get the whales, rode the bus and interacted with the bus punk. It may have been Confederation Spock (or another Vulcan) or Confederation Kirk who Kirkrati Chopped his neck to stop the music.

 

[Sci]

Do worker collective owned companies count as socialism? Or is that still considered private ownership since the government isn't involved?

I would consider worker-owned co-ops to be a form of socialism in miniature. An economy primarily built on worker-owned co-ops would not only be a socialist economy, it would be my preferred form of socialist economy.

In an ideal system where everyone shares the same value system and overall culture perhaps,

Why? Are you saying some cultures are superior to others?

And bear in mind that the United States has never had the same overall culture.

but that isn't the case with humanity at this stage so I don't think we are in a position for that to work. In Star Trek, humanity is depicted as a post-scarcity society and mono-cultural

If that were true, Star Trek would be a white supremacist show. It is not, and Star Trek does not depict humanity as monocultural.

I don't even know why they even bothered to use Guinan again if you can't use Whoppi.

Because Guinan's presence allowed the writers to dramatize certain themes this season is exploring.

The redlettermedia guys are gonna be especially brutal with this episode.

Who gives a shit?

This. De-aging can work a little bit if enough money is poured into it, and the focus isn't so heavy on the person being de-aged. Those scenes with younger Guinan? That would have cost a lot of money, and most people would have noticed very quickly something was "off." You want people focusing on what the character is saying, not how weird they look because of some kind of "cheat."

Yeah. The only time I've ever seen de-aging work in a way that felt truly seamless and unnoticeable was when they used it on Alfred Molina and Willem Defoe in Spider-Man: No Way Home. I doubt Star Trek: Picard has a Marvel Studios-level budget.

For me, this was akin to seeing Brent Spiner playing Data in the "Remembrance" dreams, and then some new 20-something playing Data in the final goodbye to Picard for "Et In Arcardia Ego." It would have lost all it's resonance.

I'm pretty sure this isn't the last time we'll see Guinan.

I am surprised that the general interpretation is that Guinan's aging process only goes one way. My interpretation of what she said in "The Star Gazer" is that she could both age and de-age herself. I imagined as one set of short-lived friends died, she took herself back to youth and started again somewhere else. Rinse & repeat.

That makes sense.

Not explicitly, but I always thought a central point of that episode was that the two men of color are immediately locked up, while the white woman is just as quickly rescued and cared for.

100% agreed.

 

[Trekker4747]

Not explicitly, but I always thought a central point of that episode was that the two men of color are immediately locked up, while the white woman is just as quickly rescued and cared for.

Ira Steven Behr said it was a specific point being made in the episode that the two men of color are treated like lowlifes and detained while the pretty white woman is cared for.

 

[valkyrie013]

For the timeline... And guinan not remembering..
There was already a chalkboard explanation in Back to the Future 2..

 

[Trekker4747]

His full name is Siddig El Tahir El Fadil El Siddig Abdurrahman Mohammed Ahmed Abdel Karim El Mahdi,

[Bruce Willis from the Fifth Element] So that whole thing is his name, huh? [/]

 

[Yistaan]

So that's something else I found particularly frustrating -- I agree they could not have digitally de-aged her, but the explanation was already introduced to make such de-aging unnecessary.

The recasting of Guinan allows her to appear in Strange New Worlds as much as they want if they want to take that option. What you suggest doesn't have this option.

 

[eschaton]

His ethnicity would be Sudanese-Arab, as his father was Sudanese, and his mother was white. His full name is Siddig El Tahir El Fadil El Siddig Abdurrahman Mohammed Ahmed Abdel Karim El Mahdi, though of course he goes by Alexander Siddig.

Sudanese Arab is an ethnicity, or if you prefer, a "race" of people who populate the nation of Sudan, located in northeastern Africa. If you prefer a little more vagueness in the traditional American style, they would be considered "middle eastern" by complexion.

Honestly most Sudanese Arabs would be classified as black within the U.S., despite having mixed ancestry. No idea regarding his own father.

Edit: Sid's uncle. Pretty clearly a black man in America.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I liked this episode too, although it felt more like a setup for what's to come.

Young Guinan had some guns on her, didn't she? There was something of an outcry at her recasting but I thought the new Guinan was just fine. Guinan is known for being wise and at peace, but this Guinan wasn't, because she lived in the shithole of our present day AND probably had some weird temporal sickness.

I'm dreading any Assignment: Earth crossover. Unless they've worked some magic, because 1960's spy cheese is the last thing I'd like.

 

[Yistaan]

His ethnicity would be Sudanese-Arab, as his father was Sudanese, and his mother was white. His full name is Siddig El Tahir El Fadil El Siddig Abdurrahman Mohammed Ahmed Abdel Karim El Mahdi, though of course he goes by Alexander Siddig.

Sudanese Arab is an ethnicity, or if you prefer, a "race" of people who populate the nation of Sudan, located in northeastern Africa. If you prefer a little more vagueness in the traditional American style, they would be considered "middle eastern" by complexion.

They should let Siddig reprise Ra's al Ghul from Gotham to fight Robert Pattinson or the Justice League in the next DC movie. I like Liam Neeson as much as the next person but he really didn't ethnically match the the background of Ra's as described in the comic books.

 

[Quinton]

I liked this episode too, although it felt more like a setup for what's to come.

Young Guinan had some guns on her, didn't she? There was something of an outcry at her recasting but I thought the new Guinan was just fine. Guinan is known for being wise and at peace, but this Guinan wasn't, because she lived in the shithole of our present day AND probably had some weird temporal sickness.

I'm dreading any Assignment: Earth crossover. Unless they've worked some magic, because 1960's spy cheese is the last thing I'd like.

I haven't seen the TOS episode since bloody forever, but the special effects sequence used when Pseudo-Laris pushes Picard into a CG door were a near-lock for that stuff, weren't they?

Genuinely asking, because I haven't gotten around to comparing them. But that's what I've seen said here and there.

 

[Sci]

Honestly most Sudanese Arabs would be classified as black within the U.S., despite having mixed ancestry. No idea regarding his own father.

I mean, we're running up here against the fact that race is a social construct rather than a biological reality, and the commonly-held racial categories in the U.S. don't really account for the ethnicities of the Middle East. It was common in the past, for instance, for people of Lebanese Arab descent to be accepted in the U.S. as white; Ralph Nader is an example. These days, Middle Easterners are often not allowed to assimilate into the "white" category, but they're not usually seen as black or Asian, either. Race is ultimately a folk taxonomy that doesn't really account for the full range of human diversity.

 

[Sakonna]

The recasting of Guinan allows her to appear in Strange New Worlds as much as they want if they want to take that option. What you suggest doesn't have this option.

Oh, I hadn't thought of that.

If that's the plan -- I hate the idea even more than I did to start!

 

[Turtletrekker]

So if they are establishing a link to Assignment Earth here, and considering that Assignment Earth was a backdoor pilot that didn't get picked up, how ironic would it be if this connection generates a spin-off now, fifty years later?

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

The Watcher should've been T.J. Hooker played by Chris Pine.

 

[fireproof78]

So if they are establishing a link to Assignment Earth here, and considering that Assignment Earth was a backdoor pilot that didn't get picked up, how ironic would it be if this connection generates a spin-off now, fifty years later?

About like having a Pike show now.

 

[Sci]

About like having a Pike show now.

Longest wait from pilot to series in TV history!

 

[Precious Tritium]

So if they are establishing a link to Assignment Earth here, and considering that Assignment Earth was a backdoor pilot that didn't get picked up, how ironic would it be if this connection generates a spin-off now, fifty years later?

Hey, we've already got a Pike series. Give it a few years and they might just do Phase II as well.

 

[Amaris]

Honestly most Sudanese Arabs would be classified as black within the U.S., despite having mixed ancestry. No idea regarding his own father.

Edit: Sid's uncle. Pretty clearly a black man in America.

Yep, my mistake. I had Siddig in my head when I typed that. You are correct, his father would have darker skin just as his uncle does.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

In an ideal system where everyone shares the same value system and overall culture perhaps

That's an ideal system? No, it isn't. I'll take a multicultural society over its antithesis any day of the week. I've broadened my horizons by interacting with people from other backgrounds, not stagnated by confining myself to the culture I was born into.