Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 2x04 - "Watcher"

[cooleddie74]

He didn't have any stickers on this boom box. He's slipping in middle age.

 

[Hythlodeus]

The problem I have with the "they come from a timeline where Time's Arrow can't have happened" approach is that we have to then erase any other time travel than happened with Starfleet characters. (So does the whale probe f-up Earth?) And if Guinan leads to them correcting the timeline, then what happens when they fix it because she will then become a version of her that does know Picard, which means everything would have played out differently in 2024. And what happened to her ability to sense an "incorrect" timeline? None of these things have strict answers and can be handwaved away, but that's why it's tricky and vaguely unsatisfying to approach it this way.

...IMO.

Confederation Spock stopped the whale probe by going back to 1984, or Punk in Bus wouldn't have reacted the way he did. And Guinan is at a point in her life, where she wasn't in the Nexus yet and El Aurian senses weren't altered by being in there

 

[Noname Given]

Not exactly. I think there is an overbearing quality to the modern iteration that leans toward in-your-face preaching that is in keeping with current big P 'Progressive' sensibilities.

Really? Only in "modern" Trek?

Please go and rewatch TOS S3 - "Let This Be Your Last Battlefield" (written filmed and shown at a time when Civil Rights was in the news nightly as well as yet to be passed Civil Rights legislation was still being debated in Congress; and get back to me.

There is also TOS S2 - "A Private Little War" - again, written, filmed and aired when the Viet Nam War was shown on U.S. TVs nightly on Network news broadcasts. (And other entertains like the Smothers Brothers who had their weekly variety show on CBS) were being censored by various affiliates...taken from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smothers_Brothers#Controversies_and_cancellation

Controversies and cancellation
With its focus having evolved toward a more youth-oriented one, the show became both popular and controversial. Three specific targets of satire – racism, the President of the United States, and the Vietnam War – wound up defining the show's content for the remainder of its run, eventually leading to its demise.

The brothers soon found themselves in regular conflict with CBS's network censors. At the start of the 1968–69 season, the network ordered that the Smothers Brothers deliver their shows finished and ready to air 10 days before air date so that the censors could edit the shows as necessary. In the season premiere, CBS deleted the entire segment of Belafonte singing "Lord, Don't Stop the Carnival" against a backdrop of the havoc during the 1968 Democratic National Convention, along with two lines from a satire of their main competitor, Bonanza. As the year progressed, battles over content continued, including a David Steinberg sermon about Moses and the Burning Bush.

With some local stations making their own deletions of controversial skits or comments, the continuing problems over the show came to a head after CBS broadcast a rerun on March 9, 1969. The network explained the decision by stating that because that week's episode did not arrive in time to be previewed, it would not be shown. In that program, Joan Baez paid tribute to her then-husband, David Harris, who was entering prison after refusing military service, while comedian Jackie Mason made a joke about children "playing doctor". When the show finally did air, two months later, the network allowed Baez to state that her husband was in prison, but edited out the reason.

Despite the conflict, the show was picked up for the 1969-70 season on March 14, seemingly ending the debate over its status. However, network CEO and President William S. Paley abruptly canceled the show on April 4, 1969. The reason given by CBS was the brothers’ refusal to meet the pre-air delivery dates as specified by the network in order to accommodate review by the censors. This cancellation led the brothers to file a successful breach of contract suit against the network, although the suit failed to see the brothers or their show returned to the air. Despite this cancellation, the show went on to win the Emmy Award that year for best writing. The saga of the cancellation of the show is the subject of a 2002 documentary film, Smothered.

^^^
And I cite the above only to show that Star Trek was doing VERY CONTROVERSIAL and OPENLY POLITICAL (with a very clear viewpoint and message) topics back in the 60s.

So yeah, sorry to burst your bubble - but Trek doing very in your face style stories that are politically charged is nothing new for the franchise.

 

[Hythlodeus]

What's the problem with the punk again?

he didn't listen to music on his phone

 

[zenophite]

privileged people fear change

And what is wrong with "progressive" why are so many bothered by such a notion? Isn't being progressive how things improve and, you know, progress? Isn't that how we get equality, improved lives and expand horizons and science?

What is wrong with PROGRESS?

It depends on what you mean by 'progressive' and 'Progress' which is why I specified what I call big 'P' progressivism. I don't identify as the latter myself - that doesn't mean I don't value equality, civil liberties, mutual respect and pluralism. In my observation, pluralism in particular seems to be absent in the big P variety.

 

[Dukhat]

What's the problem with the punk again?

He plays his music too loud and annoys the other people on the bus. I would have thought that was obvious.

 

[Tomalak]

I think some people have more of a problem with this because it isn't allegorical at all - it's set in our world, with our political and governmental institutions, so it comes across as a polemic. That's always going to turn some people off because they feel they're being lectured at, not entertained.

If it was set on planet Sigma Alpha IX and the Prebulicans were brutally arresting and deporting immigrants to Xecomi you probably wouldn't bat an eyelid.

But Star Trek has always had room for allegory and polemic, particularly DS9. I'm perfectly comfortable with this.

Our world is pretty shit for a lot of people and showing characters fight for a better one that they know can exist is pretty much Star Trek's mission statement.

 

[KennyB]

What's the problem with the punk again?

My thoughts exactly.

 

[cooleddie74]

Network TV in 1968 and 1969:

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[KennyB]

He plays his music too loud and annoys the other people on the bus. I would have thought that was obvious.

Kirk and Spock obviously have visited already because of the look on his face and compliance when asked to turn it down.

 

[Trekker4747]

It’s not vague at all. It’s an Easter Egg to be sure, but the whole point of the scene is that this is supposed to be the same guy.

Do you think that old man walking with Data in Encounter at Farpoint is anyone other than McCoy?

Ahh, I got your angle now. Yeah, it's clearly meant to be the same guy and to me he clearly remembers the encounter with Kirk and Spock.

 

[Hythlodeus]

Kirk and Spock obviously have visited already because of the look on his face and compliance when asked to turn it down.

yes, because 1984 happened 40 years before 2024, that's how time works.

but was it Federation Kirk and Spock or Confederation Kirk and Spock and why does it matter if the outcome in this case ist clearly the same?

 

[cooleddie74]

"TV in 2022 needs to be less political and preachy."

TV from 1967 to 1969:

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[KennyB]

yes, because 1984 happened 40 years before 2024, that's how time works.

but was it Federation Kirk and Spock or Confederation Kirk and Spock and why does it matter if the outcome in this case ist clearly the same?

Someone argued that if timeline was different whales would be extinct by now. But thanks for the math lesson.

 

[zenophite]

Really? Only in "modern" Trek?

Please go and rewatch TOS S3 - "Let This Be Your Last Battlefield" (written filmed and shown at a time when Civil Rights was in the news nightly as well as yet to be passed Civil Rights legislation was still being debated in Congress; and get back to me.

There is also TOS S2 - "A Private Little War" - again, written, filmed and aired when the Viet Nam War was shown on U.S. TVs nightly on Network news broadcasts. (And other entertains like the Smothers Brothers who had their weekly variety show on CBS) were being censored by various affiliates...taken from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smothers_Brothers#Controversies_and_cancellation


^^^
And I cite the above only to show that Star Trek was doing VERY CONTROVERSIAL and OPENLY POLITICAL (with a very clear viewpoint and message) topics back in the 60s.

So yeah, sorry to burst your bubble - but Trek doing very in your face style stories that are politically charged is nothing new for the franchise.

There's no bubble to burst. I'm familiar with all the source material. The difference for me may well be in the nature of the issues that this show wants to explore and the way these are presented to the audience within the context of the story.

 

[Hythlodeus]

Someone argued that if timeline was different whales would be extinct by now. But thanks for the math lesson.

you're welcome. of course I used a very linear model of time in that post, even though we all know it's a lot more wibbly wobbly than that

 

[Tomalak]

I think if the Confederation could bring the Borg to heel they wouldn't have much trouble destroying the whale probe.

 

[Trekker4747]

He didn't have any stickers on this boom box. He's slipping in middle age.

He's 60. That's past "middle age" he can get his dinner discount at Denny's before 5 pm.

 

[Hythlodeus]

I think if the Confederation could bring the Borg to heel they wouldn't have much trouble destroying the whale probe.

25th century Confeds defeated the Borg, 23th century Confeds met the whale probe. we have not enough data to get to the conclusion that they were able to destroy the whale probe, but we have data that strongly indicates someone met with Punkboy in 1984

 

[StarMan]

I gave this episode an 8, but I actually feel it's more like a 7.

I'm starting to get worried. I absolutely loved the first episode of the 2nd season. Episode 2 was still great, but a little less. Episode 3 was another step down and now we have episode 4, which feels to me like another step down from the previous episode.

Yeah - one episode with the speed wobbles would've been passable, but with this episode the trend is down. We need a hard bounce next week.