He just loves that song.
Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 2x04 - "Watcher"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
He just loves that song.
Seeing Kirk Thatcher show up really made me happy. I especially love that the song was "I STILL Hate You".
The different approaches of Star Trek and Star Wars are becoming more prominent as Star Wars has now entrenched itself into the sci-fi tv show territory that was mostly Trek's domain until now.
A very prominent season cliffhanger two parter from TNG is given no mention at all, not even as expository dialogue explaining the episode's rules of time travel.
The final showdown between Boba Fett and another bounty hunter hinges entirely on the emotional history of 2 characters who literally only briefly interacted in 1 episode of a 7 season cartoon show, an episode which even a lot of hardcore Star Wars fans probably hadn't seen, heard of, or remember.
A 7 for this one.
I liked parts of it; and the STIV:TVH Esteregg Cameo of Kirk Thatcher got a big laugh out of me.
And I'm not a big TNG fan but I do find it Interesting that they bring in another actress to play the character of Guinan, and they ignore TNG continuity. Guinan DID meet Picard in the 19th century - and all that happened IN the 'normal timeline' (hell, she recalled it IN TNG S5 - "Time's Arrow") - so either the writers conveniently 'forgot' because it doesn't fit with their story that they want to tell - or something weirder is going on in all this and they'll realign everything by the end. (With all the other Eastereggs in the episode, I don't think it's something the production staff actually forgot.)
Also, interesting that the "Watchers" appear (at least given the transport effect - which was reminiscent of 'Gary 7's' office Transporter in TOS S2 - "Assignment: Earth") to be from the Planet that's still hidden in the 23rd century - and run by a race of aliens who kidnap Humans and train them for generations. <--- So yeah, as a BIG TOS fan, I find that interesting, depending on where and how they take all this. I didn't expect the watcher to be Loriss; so I'll be curious how they explain that one.
And while I like the Borg Queen/Jurati character scenes - I have to admit I don't understand why the Borg Queen isn't trying to 'rewrite history' again herself as she attempted in ST:FC. She seems just a bit too cooperative and to me it seems she's that way just because the plot requires it.
Still we have 6 episodes to go - and with how heavily serialized this is, I'll reserve final judgement on the whole thing until its finished. It hope there is a decent story reason behind most of this more than the "these are some interesting Eastereggs for fans" aspect. The Eastereggs are fun to be sure, but I like a story that makes sense too.
I liked parts of it; and the STIV:TVH Esteregg Cameo of Kirk Thatcher got a big laugh out of me.
And I'm not a big TNG fan but I do find it Interesting that they bring in another actress to play the character of Guinan, and they ignore TNG continuity. Guinan DID meet Picard in the 19th century - and all that happened IN the 'normal timeline' (hell, she recalled it IN TNG S5 - "Time's Arrow") - so either the writers conveniently 'forgot' because it doesn't fit with their story that they want to tell - or something weirder is going on in all this and they'll realign everything by the end. (With all the other Eastereggs in the episode, I don't think it's something the production staff actually forgot.)
Also, interesting that the "Watchers" appear (at least given the transport effect - which was reminiscent of 'Gary 7's' office Transporter in TOS S2 - "Assignment: Earth") to be from the Planet that's still hidden in the 23rd century - and run by a race of aliens who kidnap Humans and train them for generations. <--- So yeah, as a BIG TOS fan, I find that interesting, depending on where and how they take all this. I didn't expect the watcher to be Loriss; so I'll be curious how they explain that one.
And while I like the Borg Queen/Jurati character scenes - I have to admit I don't understand why the Borg Queen isn't trying to 'rewrite history' again herself as she attempted in ST:FC. She seems just a bit too cooperative and to me it seems she's that way just because the plot requires it.
Still we have 6 episodes to go - and with how heavily serialized this is, I'll reserve final judgement on the whole thing until its finished. It hope there is a decent story reason behind most of this more than the "these are some interesting Eastereggs for fans" aspect. The Eastereggs are fun to be sure, but I like a story that makes sense too.
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Guinan also calls some of the Watchers "Supervisors," which was the field title for Gary Seven and at least two others of his world who had been assigned to monitor Earth.
Yes, this is one of my favorite aspects and the episode. Calling back Gary Seven is awesome, and I love to see it.
I gave this episode an 8, but I actually feel it's more like a 7.
I'm starting to get worried. I absolutely loved the first episode of the 2nd season. Episode 2 was still great, but a little less. Episode 3 was another step down and now we have episode 4, which feels to me like another step down from the previous episode.
Not too keen on this new Guinan or Rios's storyline. Actually not too keen on this 21st century setting.
Does anyone know for how many episodes they are staying there? I get the feeling it may be until episode 9 or even 10. I really hope not!
I'm starting to get worried. I absolutely loved the first episode of the 2nd season. Episode 2 was still great, but a little less. Episode 3 was another step down and now we have episode 4, which feels to me like another step down from the previous episode.
Not too keen on this new Guinan or Rios's storyline. Actually not too keen on this 21st century setting.
Does anyone know for how many episodes they are staying there? I get the feeling it may be until episode 9 or even 10. I really hope not!
This probably shouldn't irritate me as much as it does, but while it's a bit of a stretch to believe Guinan was able to find a bar on Forward Street with the address of 10 after leaving the Enterprise, it's not impossible and makes for a cute little reference. But this episode wants us to believe that her bar was at 10 Forward St. centuries before she ran a bar on Deck 10, forward of a starship and that's apparently just some sort of coincidence? 
Including Guinan at all like this was a mistake in first place. Why bring back Whoopi if you're going to show the character played by someone else because you need to show her as being younger? She looks younger than she did in Time's Arrow (which as has been discussed never happened in this timeline) and acts differently, too. A lot of time and headache could have been saved if the coordinates the Queen gave Picard lead him directly to The Watcher.
Including Guinan at all like this was a mistake in first place. Why bring back Whoopi if you're going to show the character played by someone else because you need to show her as being younger? She looks younger than she did in Time's Arrow (which as has been discussed never happened in this timeline) and acts differently, too. A lot of time and headache could have been saved if the coordinates the Queen gave Picard lead him directly to The Watcher.
Passing thoughts after reading posts...
Watcher / Supervisor took on the appearance of Laris because it's someone who Picard trusts.
From Picard's standpoint, he did not meet Guinan in 1893 because that was in his future. Obviously, they already had a history prior to STTNG. He obviously must have met her as a younger man somehow.
If somehow 1893 is in the future for our current, younger Guinan (time travel), 2024 is where she meets Picard but can't reveal those events to him in Time's Arrow because it's still in his future. And again she could not reveal it when from Picard's standpoint they met when he was a younger man.
Gary Seven..... Seven of Nine (Hmmm)
I have one other thought, but being that this is my first post I'm not sure if specualation on what may happen is allowed here.
Watcher / Supervisor took on the appearance of Laris because it's someone who Picard trusts.
From Picard's standpoint, he did not meet Guinan in 1893 because that was in his future. Obviously, they already had a history prior to STTNG. He obviously must have met her as a younger man somehow.
If somehow 1893 is in the future for our current, younger Guinan (time travel), 2024 is where she meets Picard but can't reveal those events to him in Time's Arrow because it's still in his future. And again she could not reveal it when from Picard's standpoint they met when he was a younger man.
Gary Seven..... Seven of Nine (Hmmm)
I have one other thought, but being that this is my first post I'm not sure if specualation on what may happen is allowed here.
^^^
You know, I hadn't considered that - With the changes Q makes, in the timeline they came from (and there is a physical craft and other elements from that timeline) - yeah, "Time's Arrow" as we know it, never happened.
And since they've done ALL sorts of time travel:
- A person goes back, changes the timeline, and the 1701 no longer exists (but thanks to the GoF, those in it's 'time field' remain unaffected so they can go back and fix it - See: TOS S1: "City On The Edge Of Forever"
- As soon as time is changed - it changes form the characters perspective, but not the audience's - See TNG S3 - "Yesterday's Enterprise"
So, yeah, I guess the 'temporal mechanics' here are such that the events of "Time's Arrow" didn't happen and can explain Guinan not meeting Picard before 2024.
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The actor playing the Europa mission astronaut Renée Picard reading the Dixon Hill novel “The Pallid Son” and being pestered (or an attempt at being pestered) by Q is Penelope Mitchell, who like SNW’s new Jim Kirk is a The Vampire Diaries alumnus.
Me brain not happy. Brain says "why Guinan no remember Picard?" then brain think "Confederation Picard no 'Time's Arrow' adventure". Then brain happy.
But seriously, in every other instance of Star Trek Jean Luc would say something like "Ah...but of course...in the future of the Confederation I never came back in time to meet you....". At least let us see Picard figure it out.
Overall, this felt more like it was bordering on being a season 1 episode of Picard.
But seriously, in every other instance of Star Trek Jean Luc would say something like "Ah...but of course...in the future of the Confederation I never came back in time to meet you....". At least let us see Picard figure it out.
The man is clearly a product of his time. Myself included, I still have a VCR and listen to 80s music more than modern stuff.
Overall, this felt more like it was bordering on being a season 1 episode of Picard.
Somewhere a Braxton is saying, "If you let me get rid of Voyager, they would have never found Seven, and she wouldn't have eventually disregarded Rios's order not to fire on the Borg Queen, setting in motion Picard's decision to blow up the ship, causing Q to sve the Stargazer crew by shifting them into an alternate reality, etc etc etc.The 29th Century timecops are having a busy day at the office, cleaning all this up.
I gave it a 7. Definitely a step down in quality compared to the first three. Some of it was passing time. But still entertaining.
There were definitely some interesting moments. But other parts didn't ring true. Why would the calm, cool 7 just flip out and start driving like a maniac? She'd been preaching laying low before. Ah, they need to fill some screen time with a car chase. Pointless because they were just going to beam to Rios' bus anyway.
Also, Guinan's story didn't seem to make sense. Wasn't she on Earth in the 1800s according to that TNG episode? And she met Picard back then. Or am I misremembering? And this Guinan's personality isn't consistent with the younger and older versions. And why would her bar be 10 on Forward Ave.? Clearly a play on 10-Forward but she hadn't been on the Enterprise-D by that point and would have no knowledge of it. It just didn't make sense.
Rios' story seems to be just for social commentary and to fill up screen time. First, it took Rios off the case. And, in this episode, Seven and Raffi were occupied with it. Filler.
At this point, I don't know what to make of the Watcher reveal. Or the ending of the episode.
I notice several Easter eggs. One was pretty obscure. When Picard is talking to Guinan, you can see a window with Floyd's Barbershop in the window. In TOS' Miri, they filmed in the same backlot as the Andy Griffith show and you could see Floyd's Barbershop in that episode. Maybe they're trying to link the fact that Miri's world had a catastrophe and Earth is in store for one?
Then there was Jackson Roykirk plaza!
There were definitely some interesting moments. But other parts didn't ring true. Why would the calm, cool 7 just flip out and start driving like a maniac? She'd been preaching laying low before. Ah, they need to fill some screen time with a car chase. Pointless because they were just going to beam to Rios' bus anyway.
Also, Guinan's story didn't seem to make sense. Wasn't she on Earth in the 1800s according to that TNG episode? And she met Picard back then. Or am I misremembering? And this Guinan's personality isn't consistent with the younger and older versions. And why would her bar be 10 on Forward Ave.? Clearly a play on 10-Forward but she hadn't been on the Enterprise-D by that point and would have no knowledge of it. It just didn't make sense.
Rios' story seems to be just for social commentary and to fill up screen time. First, it took Rios off the case. And, in this episode, Seven and Raffi were occupied with it. Filler.
At this point, I don't know what to make of the Watcher reveal. Or the ending of the episode.
I notice several Easter eggs. One was pretty obscure. When Picard is talking to Guinan, you can see a window with Floyd's Barbershop in the window. In TOS' Miri, they filmed in the same backlot as the Andy Griffith show and you could see Floyd's Barbershop in that episode. Maybe they're trying to link the fact that Miri's world had a catastrophe and Earth is in store for one?
Then there was Jackson Roykirk plaza!
Oops!
Except once the timeline is corrected Guinan shouldn't remember that. In fact, once the timeline is corrected, the sequence of events leading to timeline correction (Guinan not remembering Picard but helping him anyway) are erased. The universe should explode.
That's why I preferred the straightforward time travel rules better where every time travel to the past, even from alternate futures, happened. Enterprise 'Regeneration' still happened in the history of the Kelvin Timeline.
Also as a minority myself (albeit asian and not black), I'm wondering if the unintentional implied message of people of color having it worse in 2024 than they did in 1893 is a bit... look, I'm the first to say minorities have it bad right now but I think it might be a bit over the top. Guinan was with the social elite like Mark Twain. Over a hundred years later she's at the bottom of society.
The actress playing young Guinan was great.
So I was kinda right and kinda wrong. I guessed it would be Guinan or Laris.
The timeline change has not occurred yet. They made a big point of it happening in 3 days. So, we're in the unaltered past.
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