Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 2x04 - "Watcher"

[Turtletrekker]

Enterprise excepted, which had a healthy dollop of post 9/11 "hard men making hard choices."

Even going so far as to quote Reagan. (Yes, I know Reagan was quoting somebody else, but I'm sure Reagan was the intent of the producers.)

 

[eschaton]

No, they came in with a point of view and supported that point of view. It was rarely here's both sides, now think about it.

DS9 was a partial exception though. They always made it clear what side they were on, but didn't construct strawman arguments for the opposing side. Liked to end things with you feeling unsettled rather than righteous.​

 

[cooleddie74]

Sisko clearly committed a war crime trying to get Michael Eddington. But was still the winner and hero.

But it's clear almost nobody liked the chain of events.

 

[Sakonna]

The certainty of the two sides of the great Bus Punk Controversy reminds me of that "is this dress black/blue or white/gold?" thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dress

This season of Picard is literally the first time I think Kurtzman Trek has made any coherent political statements. Season 1 only had incoherent political statements, and Discovery has no political content at all.

I thought Disco's season 1 Klingons and Lorca were both presented as Trumpers. Lorca even exhorted his followers to "make the empire great again."

The Chronowerx tower was a real building in LA, with the name added in post-production, so probably.

Isn't that the same building Seven & Raffi went to the top of last week?

 

[eschaton]

Even going so far as to quote Reagan. (Yes, I know Reagan was quoting somebody else, but I'm sure Reagan was the intent of the producers.)

It's amazing Homefront/Paradise Lost was the best 9/11 allegory done, and it's from the mid 1990s.

 

[Trekker4747]

No, they came in with a point of view and supported that point of view. It was rarely here's both sides, now think about it.

Let This Be Your Last Battlefield. Hardly giving you a "here's both sides, think it over" and clearly had a side to push. The "clever" bit about it, and doing it without too much of a Gallagher Hammer, is that it doesn't out-right say they message it just says "isn't it silly these two guys hate each other because different sides off their faces are different colors? Hmm..."

 

[Tuskin38]

Isn't that the same building Seven & Raffi went to the top of last week?

No, that was the Wilshire Grand Center (which in the show was named Markridge Industrial Tower)

 

[Vale]

More exciting than last week's episode, and stuffed full of easter eggs. Past!Guinan was... both entirely expected and not at all what I was expecting.

 

[Hythlodeus]

Sisko clearly committed a war crime trying to get Michael Eddington. But was still the winner and hero.

But it's clear almost nobody liked the chain of events.

but he had to pull a Javert, because Eddington BETRAYED HIS UNIFORM!!!111!11!

 

[cooleddie74]

Sisko is the kind of guy who'd give you explosive diarrhea and put you in the hospital just to get you to see that diarrhea is a real threat if untreated.

 

[Sakonna]

It's amazing Homefront/Paradise Lost was the best 9/11 allegory done, and it's from the mid 1990s.

True. Also always freaks me out in that one when Worf cues up the footage of the explosion, time index 9 11.

 

[Hythlodeus]

Let This Be Your Last Battlefield. Hardly giving you a "here's both sides, think it over" and clearly had a side to push. The "clever" bit about it, and doing it without too much of a Gallagher Hammer, is that it doesn't out-right say they message it just says "isn't it silly these two guys hate each other because different sides off their faces are different colors? Hmm..."

but..that was the message...

 

[Trekker4747]

The certainty of the two sides of the great Bus Punk Controversy reminds me of that "is this dress black/blue or white/gold?" thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dress

Except the dress is very definitely one specific pair of colors and then confusion comes from a trick of lighting and interpretation of shadows the punk on the bus topic is more vague with no real specific, definable, answer.

 

[eschaton]

I thought Disco's season 1 Klingons and Lorca were both presented as Trumpers. Lorca even exhorted his followers to "make the empire great again."

I guess I should clarify that Discovery doesnt really explore political issues/take ideological stances. To the extent it has said anything, it's just to signal what the writers believe.

 

[Hythlodeus]

Sisko is the kind of guy who'd give you explosive diarrhea and put you in the hospital just to get you to see that diarrhea is a real threat if untreated.

I miss him

 

[Tosk]

The problem I have with the "they come from a timeline where Time's Arrow can't have happened" approach is that we have to then erase any other time travel than happened with Starfleet characters. (So does the whale probe f-up Earth?) And if Guinan leads to them correcting the timeline, then what happens when they fix it because she will then become a version of her that does know Picard, which means everything would have played out differently in 2024. And what happened to her ability to sense an "incorrect" timeline? None of these things have strict answers and can be handwaved away, but that's why it's tricky and vaguely unsatisfying to approach it this way.

...IMO.

 

[Tuskin38]

The problem I have with the "they come from a timeline where Time's Arrow can't have happened" approach is that we have to then erase any other time travel than happened with Starfleet characters. (So does the whale probe f-up Earth?) And if Guinan leads to them correcting the timeline, then what happens when they fix it because she will then become a version of her that does know Picard, which means everything would have played out differently in 2024. And what happened to her ability to sense an "incorrect" timeline? None of these things have strict answers and can be handwaved away, but that's why it's tricky and vaguely unsatisfying to approach it this way.

...IMO.

Remember what Janeway said, don't try and make sense of time travel.

 

[Dukhat]

Except the dress is very definitely one specific pair of colors and then confusion comes from a trick of lighting and interpretation of shadows the punk on the bus topic is more vague with no real soecfic, definable, answer.

It’s not vague at all. It’s an Easter Egg to be sure, but the whole point of the scene is that this is supposed to be the same guy.

Do you think that old man walking with Data in Encounter at Farpoint is anyone other than McCoy?

 

[UssGlenn]

This is something that's been talked about a lot in relation to the Kelvin Timeline. My take is that we've seen enough visitors from alternate futures in Star Trek (both ones who intentionally and incidentally avert their own existence) that it's to be expected that every time travel story we've seen in the various alternate Trek timelines (from before the point of divergence) always happen, even if the version of Trek the time-travelers came from is averted. Data's head should still be under San Francisco now, even if Data ends up never being built, just like how Admiral Janeway didn't vanish when Voyager got home early, or old Alexander wasn't forgotten by everyone when Worf didn't get murdered, or Daniels was still able to visit the NX-01 even though he was from a version of history where Archer never had to deal with Future Guy's schemes.

I think the difference here is that all those characters were responsible for the changes to the timeline themselves. Here we have people going back to prevent alteration by another party (Q in this case). And this is also unique situation since they wouldn't usually remember the original timeline, if not for Q's intervention.

 

[Nerys Myk]

What's the problem with the punk again?