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Do you like the Discovery Klingon look?

Do you like the discovery Klingon look?

  • Hate it

    Votes: 26 46.4%
  • Love it

    Votes: 18 32.1%
  • Couldn’t care less

    Votes: 12 21.4%

  • Total voters
    56
Sci said:
Pike's line makes no sense unless the space service has been discriminating against women.

or unless he said something stupid because he was attracted to Colt.

There were literally no women on the bridge besides Number One and Colt.

That's not possible unless Starfleet has been discriminating against women.

If we want to preserve the idea that Starfleet does not discriminate against women, we have to retcon this part of "The Cage." Ignore Pike's line and ignore the fact that there are no women aside from Number One and Colt. (Ignore Spock's weird "THE WOMEN!" line too.)
 
There were literally no other aliens beside Spock, this doesn’t imply that Starfleet was discriminating aliens.

There were literally three males, me included, in my first year at
classical high school, against 15 girls, and three females in my year when I went to the university the first time, against hundreds of males, there are only two against 15 or so males in my year at the conservatory I am now. Does this mean there is discrimination going on? Definitely not. Does it say something on our society? Maybe? Maybe not? Hard to tell without gathering much more data (to be clear, in classical high school it was totally random chance, as shown by the fact other classes had very different ratios, the other two instances seem to be systemic. But you can’t know that without examining other similar situations).

Also, Spock said “the women”...so? He is an alien and is fast thinking and immediately realized that them being adducted was probably due to them being women.
He was kinda emotional in The Cage, but modern Trek was kind enough to retcon this, giving it a plausible explanation.
 
There were literally no other aliens beside Spock, this doesn’t imply that Starfleet was discriminating aliens.
On that note, there were literally no women (except Leia), aliens, or people of color in the 1977 and 1980 Star Wars films on the side of the Rebels, yet neither the Legends or Canon continuity ever established the Rebels as being speciest or other -ist. (Although the old Legends "Farlander Papers" work did have Mon Mothma make a blatantly speciest comment saying "Palpatine was a rodian in ewok's clothing!")
 
There were literally no women on the bridge besides Number One and Colt.

That's not possible unless Starfleet has been discriminating against women.

If we want to preserve the idea that Starfleet does not discriminate against women, we have to retcon this part of "The Cage." Ignore Pike's line and ignore the fact that there are no women aside from Number One and Colt. (Ignore Spock's weird "THE WOMEN!" line too.)
That's not true. There is a woman sitting at a bridge station. PIke actually reaches across her to grab a printout from Garrison. After which he makes the infamous women on the bridge comment
DnD66kL.jpg
 
That's not true. There is a woman sitting at a bridge station. PIke actually reaches across her to grab a printout from Garrison. After which he makes the infamous women on the bridge comment
DnD66kL.jpg
That's why I just look at it as Pike's comment was him having a REALLY bad day, preliminary Talosian mental tampering, etc. that was an isolated incident and Number One knew that and thus didn't haul him over to HR immediately, or he apologized to Colt afterwards offscreen (I think the Marvel comic series Early Voyages featuring Pike actually had the latter happen)

At this point I'm actually more curious about Pike's reputation in Q&A as the "most heavily decorated fighting captain in Starfleet". Wasn't Starfleet at peace at this time? Who exactly was Pike (and by extension the Enterprise) beating to a pulp during this time?
 
That's not true. There is a woman sitting at a bridge station. PIke actually reaches across her to grab a printout from Garrison. After which he makes the infamous women on the bridge comment
DnD66kL.jpg

I stand corrected! But three women on the bridge crew (one of whom is just his yeoman, aka his secretary) is not exactly evidence Starfleet hasn't been discriminating against women.

Again, his line about not being used to having women on the bridge makes no sense UNLESS Starfleet has only recently begun allowing women to serve as bridge officers.

Which is why we should ignore that line and assume that Starfleet has always welcomed women officers, and is one example out of several for why we should only accept the broad outline of "The Cage" as being in continuity with the rest of the canon rather than every detail.

That's why I just look at it as Pike's comment was him having a REALLY bad day, preliminary Talosian mental tampering, etc. that was an isolated incident and Number One knew that and thus didn't haul him over to HR immediately, or he apologized to Colt afterwards offscreen (I think the Marvel comic series Early Voyages featuring Pike actually had the latter happen)

Simpler by far to just retcon the line as having not been uttered.

At this point I'm actually more curious about Pike's reputation in Q&A as the "most heavily decorated fighting captain in Starfleet". Wasn't Starfleet at peace at this time? Who exactly was Pike (and by extension the Enterprise) beating to a pulp during this time?

Was Starfleet at peace when Spock joined the Enterprise crew? We don't know that. And even if it was -- let's face it, Starfleet ships were getting into small battles all the time throughout the TOS era, even if it didn't blow up into larger interstellar wars. Star Trek is a fantasy of a morally justified outer space version of colonialism, and part of that fantasy is having plenty of gunboat diplomacy and brushfire conflicts.
 
I stand corrected! But three women on the bridge crew (one of whom is just his yeoman, aka his secretary) is not exactly evidence Starfleet hasn't been discriminating against women.
But it’s not evidence of the opposite either. And since there is plenty of evidence in the series that Starfleet does not discriminate against women it doesn’t make sense to use two very questionable examples to say they do.
Simpler by far to just retcon the line as having not been uttered.
bit it’s there and doesn’t conflict with anything. Pike had a bad day and said something stupid. Regrettable but it happens.
 
On that note, there were literally no women (except Leia), aliens, or people of color in the 1977 and 1980 Star Wars films on the side of the Rebels, yet neither the Legends or Canon continuity ever established the Rebels as being speciest or other -ist. (Although the old Legends "Farlander Papers" work did have Mon Mothma make a blatantly speciest comment saying "Palpatine was a rodian in ewok's clothing!")
Maybe not with the Rebels, but Legends continuity did depict the Empire as being every form if "-ist" possible, with it pretty much established that only white human males could rise through the ranks of the Imperial military, with odd exceptions, like Thrawn or Admiral Daala who managed to rise the chain of command despite not being either human or male. Indeed, the post-ROTJ Imperial remnant even makes it a plot point that they have to start recruiting females because they have such a severe personnel shortage.

Disney canon has ignored this. The Imperial military has plenty of women and people of color serving, even in the higher ranks. And while Thrawn is still the only alien serving in the Imperial military, there exists plenty of aliens in high up positions in the Imperial government, with Mas Amedda from the Prequels being the second in line of the Imperial government right after Palpatine.
 
I think you exaggerating that there. There's very few, and Thrawn was discriminated against at the officer academy for being an alien.
That's because the new Disney Canon couldn't make up its mind whether it wanted their Empire to to be inclusive and diverse or bigoted. This culminated in the stormtrooper Kreel clearly written at the start as a red alien, then later being said to be human with the red skin clumsily backtracked as really being tan or something by LFL on twitter.
 
I think you exaggerating that there. There's very few, and Thrawn was discriminated against at the officer academy for being an alien.
I was basing the comment on the novel Thrawn, at one point Thrawn dines at a restaurant on Coruscant which caters only to the Empire's social elite, among which includes many aliens. And I recall many alien politicians in the Disney comics.
 
I was basing the comment on the novel Thrawn, at one point Thrawn dines at a restaurant on Coruscant which caters only to the Empire's social elite, among which includes many aliens. And I recall many alien politicians in the Disney comics.
Yeah sorry I missed that you were talking about the government, not the military.

The Emperor has no issues with anyone who can serve is intrests, male, female, alien. It doesn't matter to him, they're all tools. It's the people under him that might have some prejudices.
 
But, if Starfleet always had many female memebrs (and DISC confirms this) then it's a stupid line on the level of "Ah, I can't get used to water being wet!" and IS best ignored completely.
If you think about it, the fact that Number One immediately looked at him after he said that can also be an indication that not only is what Pike said not true, he's acting completely differently than usual. It's not like she just grimaced and continued looking at her console.

Back to the Klingons, where are the Discovery Klingons? I can't wait for Culber to go all rambo on them.
 
If you think about it, the fact that Number One immediately looked at him after he said that can also be an indication that not only is what Pike said not true, he's acting completely differently than usual. It's not like she just grimaced and continued looking at her console.

You can try and force whatever you want into a badly written line from the 1960s. It doesn't change what it is, and I don't see why it must be forced into current continuity, considering what a giant moronic statement it would be.
As I said, it'd be somebody suddenly complaining that water is wet, or to phrase it differently it would be like a church deacon suddenly declaring "Oh I can't get used to seeing preachers at the church!"
 
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In my headcanon, the reason Pike said he wasn't comfortable with a woman on the bridge is that his last yeoman (the one who was killed in the fight on Rigel) was a woman and Colt's presence reminded him of that loss.

Back to the Klingons, where are the Discovery Klingons? I can't wait for Culber to go all rambo on them.

If the Klingons turn up this season, they should look different again, just to mess with our heads. :lol:
 
If the Klingons turn up this season, they should look different again, just to mess with our heads. :lol:
The Discovery crew is relaxing on 32nd century space station K-7.

Burnham: Who ordered raktajino?
Waitress: The Klingons.
Burnham: Klingons?
Waitress: Over there, and over there. (points to TNG-style Klingons)
Saru: Those are Klingons?
Waitress: All right. You all have had enough drinks.
 
If you think about it, the fact that Number One immediately looked at him after he said that can also be an indication that not only is what Pike said not true, he's acting completely differently than usual. It's not like she just grimaced and continued looking at her console.
Precisely.
You can try and force whatever you want into a badly written line from the 1960s. It doesn't change what it is, and I don't see why it must be forced into current continuity, considering what a giant moronic statement it would be.
As I said, it'd be somebody suddenly complaining that water is wet, or to phrase it differently it would be like a church deacon suddenly declaring "Oh I can't get used to seeing preachers at the church!"
you are the one trying to “force” a lime out of the continuity because you don’t like it.
 
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