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Do you like the Discovery Klingon look?

Do you like the discovery Klingon look?

  • Hate it

    Votes: 26 46.4%
  • Love it

    Votes: 18 32.1%
  • Couldn’t care less

    Votes: 12 21.4%

  • Total voters
    56
Maybe. But, that doesn't change the fan interaction I had of them being out of continuity or inappropriate tech for the era from discussions around the internet.

I'm curious as to why people would think this. The Abrams films were specifically made to be a reboot, so they wouldn't mess with previous continuity. As for the tech, I'm not sure why that would be a problem either since the rebooted nature of the films don't have to cohere with the tech level from TOS.
 
I'm curious as to why people would think this. The Abrams films were specifically made to be a reboot, so they wouldn't mess with previous continuity. As for the tech, I'm not sure why that would be a problem either since the rebooted nature of the films don't have to cohere with the tech level from TOS.
Didn't matter to them. Jar Jar Abrams was wrong, tech didn't work that way, uniforms were the wrong era, phasers were wrong, etc.
 
It was a lot of people and assumptions about how tech worked. I saw it repeated across three different fan sites.

But it was explicitly shown and mentioned in the film that the timeline changed and everything rebooted. So no assumptions could possibly be made about tech because it was all new. It sounds more like people who just didn't like Abrams and were trying to come up with any excuse, however paper-thin, to dis him and his movies.
 
But it was explicitly shown and mentioned in the film that the timeline changed and everything rebooted. So no assumptions could possibly be made about tech because it was all new. It sounds more like people who just didn't like Abrams and were trying to come up with any excuse, however paper-thin, to dis him and his movies.
Maybe. But they also disagreed with the temporal mechanisms too so the base conceit of the film was rejected.
 
Considering it's all fictional and Star Trek has never had any hard-and-fast rules concerning time travel (much less IRL time travel rules), that argument doesn't seem to hold water.
 
Considering it's all fictional and Star Trek has never had any hard-and-fast rules concerning time travel (much less IRL time travel rules), that argument doesn't seem to hold water.
Just telling you what I saw. Wouldn't have stood out if it were not on multiple sites.
 
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I'm curious as to why people would think this. The Abrams films were specifically made to be a reboot, so they wouldn't mess with previous continuity. As for the tech, I'm not sure why that would be a problem either since the rebooted nature of the films don't have to cohere with the tech level from TOS.
Exactly. From what I've seen most of the criticism are relative to how the film connects to the previous ones, for example the Kelvin having a bridge window and phaser fire looking different or the movie apparently deleting the old continuity (behind the scenes they specified Nero created an alternate reality, without overwriting the original one, but it wasn't clear in the first movie) or, and those were usually much better motivated, to the many plot holes in the first two films especially, but all in all while not being particularly popular among "core" fans (the ones posting online, going to conventions and so on…) they were accepted and not as criticised as discovery, were many things left a bad taste to many people that are only marginal fans.
 
I wonder if it was the same people posting to multiple sites. Stupid tends to spread that way.

Exactly. From what I've seen most of the criticism are relative to how the film connects to the previous ones, for example the Kelvin having a bridge window and phaser fire looking different...

Irrelevant nonsense.

...or the movie apparently deleting the old continuity (behind the scenes they specified Nero created an alternate reality, without overwriting the original one, but it wasn't clear in the first movie)

Also irrelevant. Nothing in the movie suggested the previous timeline was erased, only that a new timeline was created. And if the previous timeline was erased, I would think that Prime Spock and Nero would have ceased to exist. But again, because there are no rules to time travel in a fictitious show, it doesn't matter anyway. IRL, nobody's TOS DVDs suddenly got erased from history.
 
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they were accepted and not as criticised as discovery
This is the only point I will disagree with. Many of the same complaints I see with Discovery I saw with the Kelvin films.

I wonder if it was the same people posting to multiple sites. Stupid tends to spread that way.
I couldn't say for certain save for one site where it was a friend of mine who rarely posted online and could barely contain his frustration at how Abrams did the film. Temporal mechanics were wrong, Spock was out of character, phasers were not right for the time period, the USS KELVIN uniforms, etc. Pretty much everything I hear about Discovery I heard then.

It's part of why I find it harder and harder to take such comments seriously.
 
Irrelevant nonsense.
I mostly agree.
Also irrelevant. Nothing in the movie suggested the previous timeline was erased, only that a new timeline was created. And if the previous timeline was erased, I would think that Prime Spock and Nero would have ceased to exist. But again, because there are no rules to time travel in a fictitious show, it doesn't matter anyway. IRL, nobody's TOS DVDs suddenly got erased from history
In the movie it didn't, in past trek we've seen several instances of changes to the past resulting into a different present (and, I believe, we're going to see one again in Picard), so it's a understandable concern.

All in all, had the went for a full reboot they might have gotten even less criticisms, but of course that would have made problematic to insert nimoy.
 
How so? I'll grant the interesting aspect of technology being more slow in advancement, even in human history, but there are at least changes that can be seen. Star Wars feels almost static in some places.

If you're talking about the core storyline of the movies/series, it's a 67-year period - a human lifetime. Now, 67 years recently has resulted in a ton of progress. But I don't think up until the 19th century the average person would have seen much change over the course of their live. Maybe they'd see a single invention (iron weapons, printing press, plows, mechanical clock, better firearms, etc.) become omnipresent over the course of their life. But if they lived prior to 1500, possibly nothing of note would change in terms of technology in their lifetime at all.

If you're talking about how awkwardly the KOTOR setting integrates with the core storyline, you have a point. From what I can gather it's sort of the inverse of Discovery's jump to the 32nd century. They wanted to set a storyline so far away in time that they didn't have to worry about it impacting the rest of the universe. At the same time, they wanted to bring in all of the design choices/tech/races which Star Wars fans knew and loved. I can headcanon it away as being because civilization may have risen and fallen in the interim however.
 
I can headcanon it away as being because civilization may have risen and fallen in the interim however.
You don't need to headcanon it as far as Legends, because that's basically what happened. The New Sith Wars devastated the galaxy to the extent that afterwards the Republic was rebuilt completely from the ground up.
 
Every new showrunner in every show or movie wants to put their own 'spin' on things. But at best, there's only a 50% chance that their 'spin' will be liked/accepted/tolerated/etc. by the audience who are familiar with the original version that the new person wants to change to suit whatever new story they want to tell.

Sometimes writers and artists want to put their own spin on things as well, with the best of intentions, but can't really do that in a way that preserves the original intent. As a non-Trek example, Marvel Comics did a big crossover event in 1995 called the Age of Apocalypse. This story was about the main Marvel Earth (Earth 616) becoming radically altered because Xavier's son, Legion, traveled back in time to kill Magneto before he could become one of the team's greatest threats. Legion had become convinced that doing so would make it much easier for the X-Men's dream of integrating with normal humans to succeed.

Unfortunately, things took an unexpected turn when the past version of Xavier took the fatal blow meant for Magneto, as Legion had arrived when the two were working as allies but hadn't fully split in different philosophical directions. Professor X was killed years before he founded the first generation of X-Men and even before he had the relationship that led to Legion's birth, causing him to blink out of existence (oops... :D). Worse, Apocalypse had witnessed the fight between Legion and a group of modern X-Men trying to stop his tampering, and Apocalypse chose to become active much earlier than in the original history.

In the "new" modern day, the world is a much worse place. Magneto is leading the X-Men but is a much harsher leader than Xavier was, and Apocalypse's forces had captured or destroyed much of the world. Many characters in this timeline effectively had their allegiances altered, with a number of 616 heroes being allies of Apocalypse in this reality and some villains like Sabertooth being more heroic. The only person who retained any memories of the original history was Bishop, because he came from one variant future himself and wasn't "native" to the 616 timeline. Bishop was eventually able to travel back in time and prevent Legion's mistakes, restoring the proper version of the timeline.

In 2005, for the 10th anniversary, Marvel decided to retcon the AoA reality into being an entire separate Earth (Earth-295) because they wanted to use the altered AoA versions of characters for new stories. The problem with this approach is that it meant removing or ignoring the time travel aspect of the original story, and some elements of that don't make any narrative sense in the framework of the AoA being an alternate Earth. There's a plot thread where the AoA Colossus tried to stop Bishop from resetting the timeline, because he learned that his sister Magik (who was alive in the AoA reality but dead in the normal timeline, at the time) would be killed. AoA Colossus wasn't the most stable version of him to begin with, and his obsession to protect Magik led him to abandon most of his team to Apocalypse's forces and even unwittingly kill his wife, AoA Shadowcat, when she tried to get him straight.
 
That seems...awfully convoluted. Wouldn't it have been better to just reset everything and make a new story?
 
sure, but you don’t insist they are the same thing.

Absolutely not relevant to the question of whether or not they respect the prior artists.

Musicians who cover songs in new arrangements can respect the songs' original artists, and the artists who make Star Trek: Discovery have said over and over again how much they respect the artists on prior Star Trek productions. Doing something different does not mean you're not respecting the artists who came before.

bad example, as he kept mostly the same chords and the same basic melody, only elaborating on what was already there and adding his own arrangement.

And again, he never said it’s supposed to be the same thing. There isn’t a continuity in music like there is in television.

That's the point: The people making DIS made a conscious decision not to have as much continuity in certain areas. That is a legitimate creative choice, just like doing a new arrangement of a song you're covering is a legitimate creative choice. Just because you want continuity does not mean that those who chose not to retain continuity did not respect the artists who came before.

says who? It’s absurd to think that Starfleet isn’t open to women, even with the evidence we have in that single episode.

It's absurd today, but the idea of women serving in the military was new when Roddenberry wrote "The Cage," and his depiction of women in that episode is still incredibly misogynistic and regressive. Remember, it wasn't until the 1990s that women began serving aboard U.S. Navy ships, etc.

Pike's line makes no sense unless the space service has been discriminating against women. If Starfleet has not been discriminating against women, then there is no way that only one woman would be serving on the bridge and therefore no way for Pike not to be used to having women other than Number One on the bridge. The only way his line makes any sense is if Starfleet has been discriminating against women.

Since we all agree that depicting Starfleet as discriminating against women is a bad idea, it's a better idea to just ignore that line and retcon Starfleet as having never discriminated against women, to assume that women have always served aboard Pike's bridge, and to pretend that Pike never delivered that line and is perfectly used to serving alongside women.

Which was my original point -- that a lot of stuff in "The Cage" is contradicted by later canon and/or outdated and contradicted by the value systems we have today that the creators didn't have in 1964, and that therefore it's a better idea to just ignore some elements from "The Cage" and retcon them away instead of trying to find ways to rationalize them.
 
That seems...awfully convoluted. Wouldn't it have been better to just reset everything and make a new story?

Yeah, it's definitely sort of convoluted. :lol: Unlike the majority of alternate main characters that show up in Marvel, the AoA versions weren't really separate variations of the cast. They were more like the TNG crew in "Yesterday's Enterprise," in a significantly altered version of the normal timeline. The Magik of the AoA timeline never gained her set of magical powers that she had in the normal version, because she was never taken to Limbo. In the main timeline, she was one of the victims of the Legacy Virus which targeted the mutant genome and was designed specifically as an anti-mutant weapon. Magik eventually got better, of course, but she was dead for quite a long while compared to some characters. :D

I get what Marvel was going for, and I do like the idea of revisiting the AoA timeline. I just don't think retconning it into a parallel Earth works as well from a narrative standpoint. :) It's kind of like the running gag that alternate versions of Cyclops will often have his iconic visor, even though their lives are much different and they presumably don't need it the way that Cyclops 616 does. He needs the ruby lenses to filter his power because he suffered mild brain damage when the Shi'ar abducted his father, and his eye beams are stuck in an "on" state that he can't shut off.

Isn't writing and continuity fun? :whistle:
 
Absolutely not relevant to the question of whether or not they respect the prior artists.
in your opinion.
But of course you are (and it’s not the first time) taking a single word I wrote out of context and charging it with enormous negative meanings I never intended in the first place.

It's absurd today, but the idea of women serving in the military was new when Roddenberry wrote "The Cage," and his depiction of women in that episode is still incredibly misogynistic and regressive.
go figure, it’s something that was filmed in the 60s.

Pike's line makes no sense unless the space service has been discriminating against women.
or unless he said something stupid because he was attracted to Colt.
 
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