Vernal galaxy

[Timo]

In-universe, it could go either way. On one hand, it would be a pretty amazing coincidence that a guy who more than a decade earlier signed a random memo would now be hailing Kirk's ship. On the other, perhaps Starfleet bigwigs don't rotate from position to position every two years, and Robert Comsol remains either Starfleet's supreme commander, or then the Cigarette-Smoking Man in exclusive charge of the dark Talosian secret.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BK613]

Perhaps such directives come up for periodic review and Comsol is just the latest in a line of Admirals keeping the policy in place.

 

[Henoch]

The document appears to be an executive order by the big cheese himself, Robert L. Comsol, the Commanding Officer of Starfleet Command. Since the document is not dated, it could be the original issue 13 years ago, or just renewed yesterday by the current CO of Starfleet. Whether Admiral Bob Comsol has been the CO for the last 13 years or just one year, the undated document is vague enough for either scenario.

 

[Timo]

...Why would the Big Kahuna meekly "recommend", tho? His signature ought to go to the even more secret piece of paper saying "Now this is why we need the death penalty clause activated on General Order 7", and the more public one establishing this for the entire Starfleet to know, but this shoddy little inter-department memo?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Scott Kellogg]

I'd like to point out that there are quite a few small galaxies in orbit around the Milky Way.
The Magellanic Clouds for instance. The closest one (according to Wikipedia) is only 8000 parsecs from the Milky Way. One could potentially be named the Vernal Galaxy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_galaxies_of_the_Milky_Way

I've kind of speculated that the Doomsday Machine came from one of these.

 

[Falconer]

Talos IV is established as being in our galaxy, though. “My name is Christopher Pike, commander of the space vehicle Enterprise from a stellar group at the other end of this galaxy” (The Cage). And again, “Captain’s log, supplemental… On our monitor screen, the voyage of Captain Pike and the Enterprise to the one forbidden world in all the galaxy” (The Menagerie).

 

[Henoch]

...Why would the Big Kahuna meekly "recommend", tho? His signature ought to go to the even more secret piece of paper saying "Now this is why we need the death penalty clause activated on General Order 7", and the more public one establishing this for the entire Starfleet to know, but this shoddy little inter-department memo?

Timo Saloniemi

Even the head of Starfleet does not have any executive/legislative power to create General Orders and death penalties. It would be like the Chairman of the US Department of Defense issuing laws with death penalties. It don't happen this way. This should be done by the Federation bureaucracy based on a recommendation from Starfleet Command. The document we see is the recommendation that no one shall visit Talos IV. Penalty is not recommended nor even mentioned. The bureaucrats decide the best way to implement this recommendation, in this case, is with a General Order with the death penalty to assure its compliance. A supplemental document/computer file of higher "need to know" provides the real reasons behind the order and penalty. Mendez and Kirk don't have need to know. Pike and Spock obviously know, but don't have the authority to grant the need to know to Mendez and Kirk, but legal loopholes may be open to Spock if Spock gets the Talosians to reveal the information.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I'd like to point out that there are quite a few small galaxies in orbit around the Milky Way.

Good thought. Yeah, so maybe the Vernal Galaxy is a satellite galaxy of the Milky Way near the First Point of Aries as seen from Earth.

Or, if we're being heliocentric instead geocentric (so we're considering the position of the Earth relative the Sun at the March equinox instead of the Sun relative to Earth), a satellite galaxy near the First Point of Libra.

(Yes, I know the Sun is now in Pisces at the March/vernal equinox and in Virgo at the autumnal equinox [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_precession].)

I'd think that, in such a future when people have spread so much out into space, they wouldn't be quite as geocentric as we remain today (and quite understandably so, given how Earthbound we are), but I guess use of the terms "vernal," "Earthship," etc. would tend to suggest otherwise.

 

[Falconer]

Or they meant ventral. You know, just like people speak of the Enterprise’s dorsal and ventral saucer.

 

[Christopher]

Or they meant ventral. You know, just like people speak of the Enterprise’s dorsal and ventral saucer.

Doesn't make sense. There's no up and down in space, so how do you define which side of the galaxy is "ventral?" But "vernal," as I said, is a real term used in astronomy, so presumably that's exactly the word they intended, even if they used it in a word-salad kind of way.

 

[BK613]

so how do you define which side of the galaxy is "ventral?

Arbitrarily. Just like 'north' and 'south' in the galactic coordinate system.

 

[BK613]

Even the head of Starfleet does not have any executive/legislative power to create General Orders and death penalties. It would be like the Chairman of the US Department of Defense issuing laws with death penalties. It don't happen this way. This should be done by the Federation bureaucracy based on a recommendation from Starfleet Command. The document we see is the recommendation that no one shall visit Talos IV. Penalty is not recommended nor even mentioned. The bureaucrats decide the best way to implement this recommendation, in this case, is with a General Order with the death penalty to assure its compliance. A supplemental document/computer file of higher "need to know" provides the real reasons behind the order and penalty. Mendez and Kirk don't have need to know. Pike and Spock obviously know, but don't have the authority to grant the need to know to Mendez and Kirk, but legal loopholes may be open to Spock if Spock gets the Talosians to reveal the information.

In the U S, the Uniform Code of Military Justice is part of the US Code, enacted by Congress. Whom, I guarantee you, listen to recommendations from folks in the DoD bureaucracy on what it should contain.

 

[The Old Mixer]

There's no up and down in space, so how do you define which side of the galaxy is "ventral?"

Galactic plane - Wikipedia

The directions perpendicular to the galactic plane point to the galactic poles.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Galactic plane - Wikipedia

Yes. And there is an explicit definition of the north and south galactic poles in IAU standard coordinates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_coordinate_system

 

[Christopher]

Galactic plane - Wikipedia

Yes, obviously, but which of the two directions is "up" is arbitrary. That's the point.

Besides, "dorsal" and "ventral" refer to the back and chest of a living creature, or by analogy to the corresponding portions of a vehicle. They aren't used for geographical or astronomical referents. But "vernal" is used as an astronomical reference point, if not in quite the way it's used here.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Yes, obviously, but which of the two directions is "up" is arbitrary. That's the point.

No, that's incorrect. As I said, the IAU coordinate system has an explicit definition for which is north and which is south. From this definition, language could evolve and other terms could be defined unambiguously, including ventral in relation to the galaxy.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Yes, obviously,

Not so obvious from your question.

but which of the two directions is "up" is arbitrary.

Galactic North, obviously.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Galactic North, obviously.

Ding ding ding. Yeppers.

 

[Christopher]

Not so obvious from your question.

You know perfectly well that I am a science fiction writer and thus I obviously know what the galactic plane is.

Galactic North, obviously.

North is not "up." That's a convention of European mapmakers. Besides, Earth's equator is tilted at a pretty sharp angle relative to the galactic plane, so galactic north is pretty far "sideways" relative to Earth's north.

 

[The Old Mixer]

North is not "up." That's a convention of European mapmakers.

A convention that would obviously be followed by people used to using those maps.