Spoilers Star Trek: Lower Decks 2x01 - "Strange Energies"

[Boris Skrbic]

Seems like a case of moving goalposts.

Assertion: There are no chaotic good characters in live action Trek.
Reply: Yes there are, and here's a bunch of them
Moved goalpost: Well, those are serious examples of chaotic good characters.

It’s not a moved goalpost because ‘Chaotic Good’ was initially used in reference to Mariner on a show as light as LDS, so next I’m thinking Lwaxana, not the Maquis. Context matters, so let’s go back to that post:

She's Chaotic Good, and there must be an accounting for that in Gene's Vision™ or else it falls apart anyway.

We can’t compare her to Sisko from “In the Pale Moonlight” — that’s just ridiculous, since Mariner would never be allowed to go that far on this kind of show. Not even Barclay, whose problems are only comical until Picard rightly orders everyone to start taking them seriously. All those characters with their specific issues just wouldn’t work on LDS unless they were brought in for an out-of-character, inconsequential moment of parody. Even if Mariner herself could be argued to have issues, it obviously isn’t something LDS can address the way live action would.

And yes, Mariner was authorized by her “cool mom”, which just makes it even more strange. Corrupt admirals or Captain Harriman are not quite relevant because Captain Freeman is supposed to be reasonably competent with cartoonish exaggeration. McMahan just isn’t interested in breaking any mold: the viewer knows what kind of writing goes with this kind of animation, and that’s exactly what we’re getting. No surprises there, unlike the way TAS was written much closer to live action than a Saturday morning cartoon.

What I’d like to see instead is a show played absolutely straight that generates comedy by asking questions that are conveniently avoided in live action, like the whole money issue and other aspects of Gene’s Vision. Just think of “Those are Klingons?” You don’t even need the continuation to feel that a taboo has been broken and now you’re wondering what comes next. LDS could do that all the time as the most natural elaboration upon the chosen setting. Just point the camera where it hasn’t been pointed before.

So I don’t really need an explanation for why the show is made the way it is. What I’m worried about is that some people seem to accept what they’re given like it’s the most natural thing in the world, without so much as an “I understand what they’re going for, but here’s what I’d like to see instead.” I can’t imagine that LDS is precisely what anyone was looking for, so let’s see those individual views and generate discussion. Sure, there will always be that person who is annoyed by the “lack of support” or “hate” or “fans who can never be happy”, but that’s OK, since fandom isn’t about participating in shared hype.

 

[fireproof78]

I didn't ask for LD. it was the last show that I wanted and certainly would not be the first idea that sprung to mind. But, it is the type of show that I find can make a difference because it is willing to not treat Star Trek as a box to be rigidly adhered to in the extreme. It is overly reverent in terms of past Star Trek but it is also willing to have fun with a lot of Trek tropes. And, in my opinion, that's more fun because Star Trek is absolutely absurd at times but is treated extremely seriously. LD looks at Trek and says "This is absurd and we're going to have fun with it.

Playing it straight can be fun but I wouldn't want a season long of it. A movie maybe.

 

[Amaris]

We can’t compare her to Sisko from “In the Pale Moonlight”

Yes we can, and I did.

— that’s just ridiculous, since Mariner would never be allowed to go that far on this kind of show. Not even Barclay, whose problems are only comical until Picard rightly orders everyone to start taking them seriously. All those characters with their specific issues just wouldn’t work on LDS unless they were brought in for an out-of-character, inconsequential moment of parody. Even if Mariner herself could be argued to have issues, it obviously isn’t something LDS can address the way live action would.

And yes, Mariner was authorized by her “cool mom”, which just makes it even more strange. Corrupt admirals or Captain Harriman are not quite relevant because Captain Freeman is supposed to be reasonably competent with cartoonish exaggeration. McMahan just isn’t interested in breaking any mold: the viewer knows what kind of writing goes with this kind of animation, and that’s exactly what we’re getting. No surprises there, unlike the way TAS was written much closer to live action than a Saturday morning cartoon.

What I’d like to see instead is a show played absolutely straight that generates comedy by asking questions that are conveniently avoided in live action, like the whole money issue and other aspects of Gene’s Vision. Just think of “Those are Klingons?” You don’t even need the continuation to feel that a taboo has been broken and now you’re wondering what comes next. LDS could do that all the time as the most natural elaboration upon the chosen setting. Just point the camera where it hasn’t been pointed before.

So I don’t really need an explanation for why the show is made the way it is. What I’m worried about is that some people seem to accept what they’re given like it’s the most natural thing in the world, without so much as an “I understand what they’re going for, but here’s what I’d like to see instead.” I can’t imagine that LDS is precisely what anyone was looking for, so let’s see those individual views and generate discussion. Sure, there will always be that person who is annoyed by the “lack of support” or “hate” or “fans who can never be happy”, but that’s OK, since fandom isn’t about participating in shared hype.

That's fine.

 

[Commander Troi]

What I’d like to see instead is a show played absolutely straight that generates comedy by asking questions that are conveniently avoided in live action, like the whole money issue and other aspects of Gene’s Vision. Just think of “Those are Klingons?” You don’t even need the continuation to feel that a taboo has been broken and now you’re wondering what comes next. LDS could do that all the time as the most natural elaboration upon the chosen setting. Just point the camera where it hasn’t been pointed before.

OK, now I see where you're coming from! I don't know how workable that would be for a whole show, but I think it would be cool to see some of this in the various shows.

It's easy to forget that TOS had both Very Serious and Totally Comedy eps, as well as eps that had some of both. I think subsequent shows have done more comedy-bits-within-serious (and vice versa), but the story potential you're talking about is definitely there for writers willing to do it.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

When word came of Lower Decks the first thing I hoped for was Futurama but in a Star Trek setting with Futurama-type characters and situations and overall comedy style (clever sarcasm, whacky hijinks, dash of heartbreak drama) but with Starfleet officers and self-referential Star Trek jokes. Like how Futurama's *thing* is clever science and science fiction jokes, I'd want an animated series' *thing* to be referencing the humor of Star Trek both in in-universe and out-universe context. I received exactly what I wanted, so again I believe that I am exactly the type of fan that this show is written for.

Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE a straight-played animated show where the humor comes from examining the silliness of the Star Trek universe and not whacky hijinks, but that's not what I assumed this show would be and I wouldn't want to give up this one for that either.

 

[thribs]

I read a novel recently where McCoy was being rude to an Andorian for not understanding Earth culture only for it to be revealed that the Andorian was born and raised in Cincinnati. Could be something similar here.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I read a novel recently where McCoy was being rude to an Andorian for not understanding Earth culture only for it to be revealed that the Andorian was born and raised in Cincinnati. Could be something similar here.

Must have been named for one of Cincinnati's greatest citizens, Jennifer Marlowe.

 

[Saul]

Did anyone think it weird we could see the perspective of the Holodeck simulation from outside the ship? I mean, shouldn't it not even exist since Marinar is on the bridge?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Did anyone think it weird we could see the perspective of the Holodeck simulation from outside the ship? I mean, shouldn't it not even exist since Marinar is on the bridge?

Ever watch a videogame cutscene while playing VR? It's definitely not a good idea, but it happens (and I nearly fell over)

 

[jackoverfull]

Did anyone think it weird we could see the perspective of the Holodeck simulation from outside the ship? I mean, shouldn't it not even exist since Marinar is on the bridge?

kinda. One of the giveaways in ship in a bottle was that you no longer saw the externals cutscenes.

on the other hand in Crisis Point we saw the externals already, so there is precedent.

 

[Kelso]

Did anyone think it weird we could see the perspective of the Holodeck simulation from outside the ship? I mean, shouldn't it not even exist since Marinar is on the bridge?

I did think that was weird.

But the exteriors were a lot of fun so I just went with it.

 

[cooleddie74]

A lot of things about holodeck science don't make sense when you think about them, "treadmill" environment and solid-feeling holograms aside for the moment. This was just one of those times.

 

[Tuskin38]

James Earl Jones doesn't sound exactly like he did in 1977 when he recorded dialogue for Darth Vader in the original Star Wars and you can tell when you watch scenes of Rogue One where Vader speaks, even though the two films are literally set minutes apart.

He sounded better in Rebels than in Rogue One IMO, but yeah you can still tell his voice is just not the same.

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[Synodic]

I enjoyed it, but the large floating head felt a bit too sillly (same with Nth Degree in TNG, really).

 

[Amaris]

A lot of things about holodeck science don't make sense when you think about them, "treadmill" environment and solid-feeling holograms aside for the moment. This was just one of those times.

This. In terms of physics, unless there's some kind of truly universe folding spatial displacement going on in the holodeck itself, the idea of treadmills and how the emitter diodes can simulate real feeling matter from any angle doesn't truly hold up, and yes, I memorized the technical manuals as a kid (thanks Robby, sorry I got cheeto stains on the "Sarium Krellide" entry).

You have to take it for what it is, and just go along with it.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

What we are seeing is third person view, if someone was watching the holodeck simulation from outside in the hallway lol. It's like when you play a VR game and have a webcam and green screen set up during the party so everyone can watch you play Beat Saber.

We are looking at background calculations the magic holodeck is running as it creates an entire self-contained mini universe (or tiny-verse) with its own physics.

 

[matthunter]

I enjoyed it, but the large floating head felt a bit too sillly (same with Nth Degree in TNG, really).

Or the giant green hand in Who Mourns For Adonais?. Or Abraham Lincoln floating through space in an armchair.

Or Voyager disguised as an ornament on an Xmas tree.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Or the giant green hand in Who Mourns For Adonais?. Or Abraham Lincoln floating through space in an armchair.

Or Voyager disguised as an ornament on an Xmas tree.

Or the entirety of the Robin Hood episode.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

Or the sex ghost living in the haunted candle on the planet of the Scotland.

I'm not sure if I'm playing correctly.

 

[Sarcastic Vulcan Salute]

It’s not a moved goalpost because ‘Chaotic Good’ was initially used in reference to Mariner on a show as light as LDS, so next I’m thinking Lwaxana, not the Maquis. Context matters, so let’s go back to that post:



We can’t compare her to Sisko from “In the Pale Moonlight” — that’s just ridiculous, since Mariner would never be allowed to go that far on this kind of show. Not even Barclay, whose problems are only comical until Picard rightly orders everyone to start taking them seriously. All those characters with their specific issues just wouldn’t work on LDS unless they were brought in for an out-of-character, inconsequential moment of parody. Even if Mariner herself could be argued to have issues, it obviously isn’t something LDS can address the way live action would.

And yes, Mariner was authorized by her “cool mom”, which just makes it even more strange. Corrupt admirals or Captain Harriman are not quite relevant because Captain Freeman is supposed to be reasonably competent with cartoonish exaggeration. McMahan just isn’t interested in breaking any mold: the viewer knows what kind of writing goes with this kind of animation, and that’s exactly what we’re getting. No surprises there, unlike the way TAS was written much closer to live action than a Saturday morning cartoon.

What I’d like to see instead is a show played absolutely straight that generates comedy by asking questions that are conveniently avoided in live action, like the whole money issue and other aspects of Gene’s Vision. Just think of “Those are Klingons?” You don’t even need the continuation to feel that a taboo has been broken and now you’re wondering what comes next. LDS could do that all the time as the most natural elaboration upon the chosen setting. Just point the camera where it hasn’t been pointed before.

So I don’t really need an explanation for why the show is made the way it is. What I’m worried about is that some people seem to accept what they’re given like it’s the most natural thing in the world, without so much as an “I understand what they’re going for, but here’s what I’d like to see instead.” I can’t imagine that LDS is precisely what anyone was looking for, so let’s see those individual views and generate discussion. Sure, there will always be that person who is annoyed by the “lack of support” or “hate” or “fans who can never be happy”, but that’s OK, since fandom isn’t about participating in shared hype.

You said that there were no chaotic good characters in Star Trek, period. Not that there were no comic chaotic good characters in Star Trek or what have you.

That was shown to not be the case.

I'll take you at your word that you intended an asterisk by that statement to be no chaotic good comedic characters or whatever. But then we come to how meaningless that is because there are few comedic characters in Star Trek.

The rest of your post, well, I don't really know how to respond to it. There's nothing ridiculous about comparing Mariner to Sisko as chaotic good characters, or at least not just because Sisko was in a situation in "In The Pale Moonlight" that Mariner wouldn't face. One could always ask what would Character X do if they faced a situation like Character Y. Someone like Picard probably would have been, "That'll be all, Mr. Garak" when he suggested lying to the Romulans in the first place. Someone like Reed or Worf might have been like, "Let me set up the explosive to kill the Romulan senator. I haven't gotten to blow anything up all day!" (Kidding...kinda.)

I think it's been made very clear that Mariner has issues, among them PTSD from her previous missions, a love-hate relationship with her mother, a hate-hate relationship with Starfleet's bureaucracy, a fear of failure and of success. (We still haven't seen IIRC a scene with her and Dadmiral, but I'd say there's some issues there too.)

I think it's clear that LD isn't the sort of show you wish it were, and it's unlikely to change into that kind of show. So it's really up to you if you can enjoy it as it is or not. If not, maybe Prodigy will be more to your liking as a non-wacky show that will have serious situations intermixed with humor.