I am watching DS9 for the first time (some observations)

[DonIago]

I disagree. I think Dukat was just very good at putting himself first but claiming to be a patriot. When his interests aligned with the state he played along, and when they didn't he did things like sign treaties with the Dominion.

He congratulated Sisko and Jake because it was in his best interests to do so.

On the other hand, do we think the Cardassian government really would have supported Dukat trying to take control of DS9 in "Civil Defense"?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

He congratulated Sisko and Jake because it was in his best interests to do so.

Is a man reading a government proclamation speaking with his own voice?

 

[DonIago]

In a literal sense, yes, but in a figurative sense? Often no. Presidents have speech writers, and government officials don't necessarily believe the things they say.

For all we know, Dukat was ordered to congratulate the Siskos...and might have preferred to blow them up if he could have done so undetected.

 

[Court_Vince]

Dukat in the first 3 seasons, like Garak, his interests were to the benefit of Cardassia, like a patriot who can only see the views of the political order. Make a treaty with the Federation? If it benefits Cardassia?! Make kind with Bajorans? If it only benefits Cardassia?! The one thing there was no doubt in my mind was Dukat loved being a Cardassian and his true loyalties was his country. The episode "Explorers" was a very good story, here Sisko and Jake journey to the stars in a primitive ship to Cardassia. Dukat thought it was dangerous and risky but in the end he congratulated Sisko and Son rewarded there journey in a burst of a firework celebration. This was a well faceted character.

I disagree. I think Dukat was just very good at putting himself first but claiming to be a patriot. When his interests aligned with the state he played along, and when they didn't he did things like sign treaties with the Dominion.

He congratulated Sisko and Jake because it was in his best interests to do so.

On the other hand, do we think the Cardassian government really would have supported Dukat trying to take control of DS9 in "Civil Defense"?

I think its little bit of both imo. In the beginning before Dukat had retaken DS9 he probably did make deals and treaties when it only/mainly benefited Cardassia but when the Dominion came and with overthrow of Central Command, I feel Dukat's motivations definedly shifted towards making himself more powerful

 

[Court_Vince]

Done with Who Morns for Morn?, Far Beyond the Stars, One Little Ship, Honor Among Thieves, Change of Heart, Wrongs Darker than Death or Night, Inquisition and In the Pale Moonlight.

Who Morns for Morn?
Like The Magnificent Ferengi This one was surprisingly fun. Watching Quark jump through all hoops just to try and get the latinum as more characters show up to try and usurp it from him was great. Also Quark jumping in the cargo container was hilarious.

Far Beyond the Stars
I thought this one was pretty good. And given the general climate about the police and anti-blackness this one hit a little to close to home, especially the part where Jake gets shot by the cops and then when Sisko tries to go to his body but then cops beat him. God...it feels like it could happen today. I also liked a lot of parts near the end. Mainly stuff like Benny and The Preacher's conversation
BENNY: Tell me, please. Who am I?
PREACHER: Don't you know?
BENNY: Tell me.
PREACHER: You're the dreamer and the dream.
And the ending convo
SISKO: I suppose it did. But I have begun to wonder. What if it wasn't a dream? What if this life we're leading, all of this, you and me, everything. What if all this is the illusion?
JOSEPH: That's a scary thought.
SISKO: I know, I know. But maybe, just maybe, Benny isn't the dream, we are. Maybe we're nothing more than figments of his imagination. For all we know, at this very moment, somewhere far beyond all those distant stars, Benny Russell is dreaming of us. Wherever he is I hope Benny Russell is having good dreams

One Little Ship
While this does include the Jem'hadar and still ties into the war and as well as having pretty interesting concept. It just doesn't really add or do anything for me, it also feels a bit out of bit place. Not a lot for me say

Honor among Thieves
Okay so this one's alright, while it does tug on my heartstrings a bit with Bilby having a family and kinda wanting to leave the syndicate, there's nothing super special about this one although it does give us the info that syndicate is working(or at least may start working) with the Dominion

Change of Heart
So this one is good, I really enjoyed the banter and interaction between Jadzia and Worf in the Runabout especially the parts about Worf's sense of humor,(And the part where a lizard walks across Jadzia's arms and she tries to blow on it ) Their scenes in the jungle were also pretty good, Michael Dorn & Terry Farrell have pretty great chemistry and the part where Dax gets injured and Worf berates himself for letting her get hurt along with when Jadzia says "Just kiss me and go" really show how deeply they care about eachother, and when he left her behind and his heartbeat started growing louder and louder was great. Overall pretty good (Bonus points also making me feel the tension about Jadzia's injury)

Wrongs Darker than Death or Night
Oof, This episode like a lot of DS9 episodes is pretty heavy and god does it make me feel for Kira. To learn that not only was Dukat telling the truth and that her Mom and him were together but to also hear her mom make justifications directly to her has got hurt, Learning that your mother was an antithesis to everything you stood up and fought for during the occupation. This episode also adds extra layer of grossness to Dukat. Overall pretty good

Inquisition
Tbh I'm little disappointed in with the direction they took this episode, I hoping it would mainly be about paranoia during wartime and have some sort of message with that but you can't have everything, Regarding what the actual episode was like though, I liked it they managed to bait-n-switch me with Sloan, because I was already expecting him to be the real traitor but it turning out to be test for Bashir surprised me. I do have a few questions regarding Section 31 since their existence(at least during this point in time) is mainly secret to where nobody on DS9 crew knew about them, how do they operate and recruit new members? do they just pull the same trick they pulled on Bashir or what? and Since Sloan described themselves as a autonomous department is Starfleet still accountable for them? Do they give them specific assignments and people of interest or does Section 31 just take it apon themselves to decide? Sorry if any of these questions seem obvious. Good episode overall

In the Pale Moonlight
Ok addressing the elephant in the room with Sisko's decisions to get the Romulans in the war, I feel that this episode should've made price a little higher for Sisko(if that's the best to phrase it) Since the episode constantly portrays that this is the only to get the Romulans into the war it makes Sisko's actions not as bad, still bad/morally murky but like not as bad as in For the Uniform but there's still a lot great about this episode having it be told to just via Captains log and through memory is pretty interesting choice, along with the reveal that Garak was masterminding his own plan behind Sisko's back was awesome and add on the fight over the cost of saving the alpha quadrant was a good touch. And as for most iconic part of the episode... Whew! that was intense having Sisko stare straight into the camera as confesses how he can live with actions and then erasing the log really gives the viewer great insight into Sisko's emotional turmoil over his actions it really shows even though he can live actions he's still going to have to wrestle with for quite a while. I can see why people say this is one of DS9's best

 

[at Quark's]

I disagree. I think Dukat was just very good at putting himself first but claiming to be a patriot.

I think that's the very essence of Dukat. Ultimately, it's all about himself. Even though there seem to be some instances in which he even deludes himself in genuinely believing he is doing it for his countries' sake, such phases always are transient, and it returns to him being the central figure in his own mythos.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I think that's the very essence of Dukat. Ultimately, it's all about himself. Even though there seem to be some instances in which he even deludes himself in genuinely believing he is doing it for his countries' sake, such phases always are transient, and it returns to him being the central figure in his own mythos.

I don't think that Dukat is deluded at all. It is the very essence of the Führerprinzip, wherein the individual submits her/himself to the strong-willed leadership of a great man. The interests of the leader, in turn, become coterminous with the interests of the nation. Of course, there have been times that Dukat has played the system in order to get what he wants. His support of the democratically elected Detapa Council was situational, and by his own admission, he actions to save them were taken in order to promote his career.

 

[at Quark's]

^I didn't think Dukat was deluded in general, just that there were phases in which he seemed to (almost) convince himself he truly was the great leader Cardassia needed, or the Messenger of the Pah'Wraiths, whatever, only to later snap out of it again and show his selfish purposes.

As for that Führerprinzip you mention, that doesn't make someone immune to delusion. For example, Hitler himself seemed to have increasingly started believing in his own mythos of being an infallible figure. Some historians say this was one of the factors that accelerated Germany's downfall.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

As for that Führerprinzip you mention, that doesn't make someone immune to delusion. For example, Hitler himself seemed to have increasingly started believing in his own mythos of being an infallible figure. Some historians say this was one of the factors that accelerated Germany's downfall.

No, it does not prevent one from being delusional. Nonetheless, the idea that there is a distinction to be made between self and country is not shared by all cultures or all political systems.

 

[at Quark's]

No, it does not prevent one from being delusional. Nonetheless, the idea that there is a distinction to be made between self and country is not shared by all cultures or all political systems.

Agreed, and even after DS9 we still don't know a whole lot about Cardassian culture. We can judge how he appears to us, but we certainly don't know enough to be able to place Dukat accurately within his own cultural context.

 

[DonIago]

In the Pale Moonlight
Ok addressing the elephant in the room with Sisko's decisions to get the Romulans in the war, I feel that this episode should've made price a little higher for Sisko(if that's the best to phrase it) Since the episode constantly portrays that this is the only to get the Romulans into the war it makes Sisko's actions not as bad, still bad/morally murky but like not as bad as in For the Uniform but there's still a lot great about this episode having it be told to just via Captains log and through memory is pretty interesting choice, along with the reveal that Garak was masterminding his own plan behind Sisko's back was awesome and add on the fight over the cost of saving the alpha quadrant was a good touch. And as for most iconic part of the episode... Whew! that was intense having Sisko stare straight into the camera as confesses how he can live with actions and then erasing the log really gives the viewer great insight into Sisko's emotional turmoil over his actions it really shows even though he can live actions he's still going to have to wrestle with for quite a while. I can see why people say this is one of DS9's best

I rather thought Sisko's actions here were far worse than what he did in FtU. At the end of FtU the Cardassians and Maquis trade planets, so essentially it's a zero-sum game. Here Sisko dupes an entire civilization into committing to a war effort that will cost them thousands of lives. It's easy for us to say the Dominion would ultimately have betrayed the Romulans anyhow, but once we start predicting the future, are we any better than the Jack Pack anticipating a Dominion victory?

At the risk of being melodramatic, if the Romulans did somehow find out what Sisko did, the consequences could be dire...

 

[Court_Vince]

I rather thought Sisko's actions here were far worse than what he did in FtU. At the end of FtU the Cardassians and Maquis trade planets, so essentially it's a zero-sum game. Here Sisko dupes an entire civilization into committing to a war effort that will cost them thousands of lives. It's easy for us to say the Dominion would ultimately have betrayed the Romulans anyhow, but once we start predicting the future, are we any better than the Jack Pack anticipating a Dominion victory?

At the risk of being melodramatic, if the Romulans did somehow find out what Sisko did, the consequences could be dire...

I see that like with For the Uniform i'll probably rewatch and compare, and as for the Jack Pack their anticipations of a Dominion victory did have some bases in reality The Federation was losing the pretty bad at that point in time iirc. And given that Sisko said about Vreenak "After telling me in no uncertain terms that he would expose this vile deception to the entire Alpha Quadrant" It wouldn't just the Romulans after Sisko

 

[DonIago]

Oh, I agree that the Jack Pack's analysis had some basis in reality. That's what made it dangerous. It was probably a good model based on what they knew, but there were variables they didn't know of and consequently couldn't account for that introduced critical flaws into their model. The best lie is one that sticks as much to the truth as possible (not saying the Jack Pack was lying).

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Considering the thwarted theft of the Prometheus, I suspect any Romulans in the know would be willing to keep quiet.

 

[kkt]

as for the Jack Pack their anticipations of a Dominion victory did have some bases in reality

It was true that the Dominion was having the war very much its own way at that particular moment. But it was absurd to claim that they could account for every single variable and possible future event to the point where a Dominion victory was as certain as dropping a pencil results in it falling to the floor. No responsible analyst would claim that. It was silly that Bashir believed them even for a few minutes.

 

[Court_Vince]

It was true that the Dominion was having the war very much its own way at that particular moment. But it was absurd to claim that they could account for every single variable and possible future event to the point where a Dominion victory was as certain as dropping a pencil results in it falling to the floor. No responsible analyst would claim that. It was silly that Bashir believed them even for a few minutes.

That is one fault with Statistical Probabilities while they might genetically engieerned it does require quite a bit of suspension of disbelief to assume they accounted for every variable

 

[DonIago]

One thing I haven't been clear on is whether we're supposed to get the sense that the Pack's flawed augmentations contributed to the situation or not. It's easy enough to imagine Jack et al. buying into their self-righteousness on their own, but then you wonder what it says about Bashir that he buys into it as well. We know he has a penchant for letting his passion for a subject blind him to objective realities, but this may be the worst instance.

 

[Court_Vince]

One thing I haven't been clear on is whether we're supposed to get the sense that the Pack's flawed augmentations contributed to the situation or not. It's easy enough to imagine Jack et al. buying into their self-righteousness on their own, but then you wonder what it says about Bashir that he buys into it as well. We know he has a penchant for letting his passion for a subject blind him to objective realities, but this may be the worst instance.

For me it's just a good showcase on Bashir's flaws and character traits, he made a mistake, he was blinded by the fact that surrendering to that dominion would save lives(at least according to the Jack Pack's simulations) and he let that blind him to fact that the simulations could wrong

 

[Court_Vince]

Alright finished His Way, The Reckoning, Valiant and Profit and Lace

His Way
This one like other episodes I mentioned feels incredibly out of place especially since it comes right after In the Pale Moonlight I know DS9 tends to have alot of A/B plots and episodes that are tonally distant but here its very hard to ignore and/or to just really go with the flow on this one. As for the Kira/Odo romance, I never found it interesting and if anything I liked/enjoyed Lwaxana/Odo relationship WAY better this one. As for Vic Fontaine I like him(though that may be because he remind of a another sentient hologram I really love ) Overall mediocre episode

The Reckoning
Now this one I liked quite a bit, for a lotta reasons 1. Kai Winn is back! and this made me remember how much I enjoy hating her she and Dukat are top 10 villains for me. 2. The build-up and development to the main conflict was great, seeing Jadzia get to the main parts of the inscription and revealing that means the station will destroyed was nice(even though the station clearly wasn't going to be destroyed) It still didn't take me out of the episode and having the wormhole destabilize gave me some nice validation since I immediately thought "The gateway isn't DS9 its the wormhole!". Oh and the conflict from a character perspective and an action perspective. Watching Kai Winn and Sisko debate about the prophets motives and reasoning and seeing Kai Winn jealousy about Sisko being the Emissary and having Kira call Kai Winn out about her lack faith/Sisko having more faith than her during the aftermath for the Prophet-Pai wraith battle...Oh I have such a love for character conflict. And the Pai-wraith-Prophet battle itself was awesome and a little silly when they were just standing there but afterward it was great. And Kai Winn's "May the Prophets forgive me" was beautifully acted by Louise Fletcher despite knowing why she did it you can still hear a hint of sorrow in her voice. Overall a great episode

Valiant
Oh this one got to me, watching Nog finally get what wanted, to be on Red Squad but for it to end so tragically. To see them all just continue to believe that they would win even after so many of them died...Just to see it fail just to see them all die and for Jake and Nog just to chat about what Jake's report in going to say. the acting's a little shaky at times but I can overlook it. She had a good crew they just made a mistake Overall pretty good episode

Profit and Lace
Y'know when I first heard about this episode after lurking around in some DS9 fan spaces I first though that it was just seen as bad in the Move along Home, Threshold, Spock's Brain kind of way. But then I saw that people were saying its bad in a Code of Honor kind of a way. And even then I guess/hoped that it couldn't be that bad.
I was wrong.
*sigh* The beginning scene where Quark talks about oo-mox and then half jokingly threatens to fire her is honestly weird in itself since unless I'm forgetting things Quark hasn't done that(at least on screen) in a long time, why have him randomly start doing now?. As for a good thing is the episode the part I really enjoy is the scene where Nog, Rom and Quark call the various Commissioners and just slowly but surely get rejected and hung up on. It's pretty funny and the running gag of Acting Grand Nagus Brunt is good to. As for the rest the episode its just Man in a dress/Crossdresser humor which is painfully dated and reeks of transphobia and the part where Rom teaches Quark to walk is weird too. And add on the scene where Nilva chases Qurak around as he tells him to stay way just .
Overall... maybe I should've skipped this one.

 

[kkt]

I think airing a light episode like His Way right after a heavy episode like In the Pale Moonlight was on purpose. Too many of either light or heavy episodes in a row leads to loss of interest in the series.

Yes, Profit and Lace was a low point. It wasn't very good when it was first aired, and has not aged well.