The episode is quite clear that what Tuvok is remembering from the Excelsior is quite real, aside from the vision of a girl falling off a cliff.
USS Enterprise (eventually) on Discovery?
- Thread starter EJD1984
- Start date
Yeah, they definitely need to hire someone to check better for continuity. And I'm not even talking overall Trek canon - simply internal continuity...
Or they could just come here and review all the nitpicks on this forum 
I see you go for the “Valtane twins” theory, rather than the “everything was already unreliable in the flashback, and people seeing Janeway was just when it became apparent, so Valtane didn’t die, and there really was a three month gap between Praxis exploding and Gorkon’s assassination.”
I have no idea what you are trying to say, so allow me to clarify my own post:
Tuvok and Janeway entered a real memory of events that actually happened, aside from the traumatic flashback.
The events that the memory was based on happened essentially as shown, with caveats for Voyagers writing staff not caring about the timeline of events from TUC, nor the episodes own plot being particularly consistent.
But those egregious inconsistencies are easily explained by Tuvok's faulty, virus-ravaged memory. That he was there is not in dispute, he just can't be relied upon to give a 100% reliable account. He got the timeline wrong by a few months, which not a massive mistake even for a Vulcan to make a century down the line.
Valtane's death can't be real, he's alive afterwards in Star Trek 6.
EDIT: I didn't see the posts afterwards already discussing this, as well as Tuvok's misremembering of the timeline of the Praxis incident.
This episode was quite literally about a memory virus changing memories.
I can accept that concept itself being critisized. But critisizing that episode for depicting memory of events wrong just boggles my mind. I mean - that's literally what it was all about! Who knows what really happened, and in which order? Probably Valtane did die somewhat similar, just way later on another mission. It would already be "just memory" even without that virus. Do you know how inconsistent memories are even if they're "correctly" working?
I can accept that concept itself being critisized. But critisizing that episode for depicting memory of events wrong just boggles my mind. I mean - that's literally what it was all about! Who knows what really happened, and in which order? Probably Valtane did die somewhat similar, just way later on another mission. It would already be "just memory" even without that virus. Do you know how inconsistent memories are even if they're "correctly" working?
That's called a "continuity error." The writers of Voy needed a dramatic death, Valtane served that purpose.
You can attribute that to the alien virus thingie or whatever, if it makes you happy. It's been ages since I've seen it, I can't remember all the details.
I'm not criticizing it. VOY has had many inconsistencies and continuity errors over it's seven seasons. If the script, or the episode notes have mentioned them as related to the memory virus, fine with me.
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At least it's not as big a continuity error as Lt. Galloway being vaporized by Captain Ron Tracey and then magically reappearing alive and well in Season 3 with no explanation whatsoever. And no, he wasn't supposed to be "a different redshirt."
Granted it's been awhile since I've seen this episode, but I got the impression that, like what @Jedman67 said, the writers just retconned the events of TUC to line up with the story they were trying to tell. In TUC Valtane didn't die, but Valtane's death was a major plot point of "Flashback," so...Valtane is now dead, and we have to ignore what we saw in TUC. Because the writers didn't give a crap about continuity (which the VOY writers were quite famous for. Remember how the Delta Flyer was blown to bits in a season finale episode only to be completely restored in the season premiere which continued immediately after the former episode?)
Galloway was, uh, super prepared and had in his pocket a tiny tardigrade that was partially connected to the mycelial network. When he vaporized, his energy went to the network, and the Enterprise went after him and used his DNA from his hairbrush to make him a new body, Dr. Culber style.
See, Discovery solved yet another longstanding inconsistency!
That's ok, just change the order of the episodes. They're all over the place stardate-wise anyway.
Hell, there are arguably already two Valtanes in "The Undiscovered Country" due to an editing error in the opening Excelsior sequence.
1. Sulu makes his opening log entry.
2. Valtane walks up to Sulu, clipboard in hand and makes a report to Sulu.
3.) Ship starts shuddering.
4.) Reaction shots of various crew reacting to shuddering INCLUDING Valtane aleady seated at science station.
5.) Sulu's teacup shatters to floor.
6.):Valtane leaves Sulu to head aft toward science station.
7.) Valtane pushes crewman out of his way to take station, reports, "I have an energy wave at 240 degrees mark 6 to port, sir."
8.) Valtane gets out of chair, leaves console and approaches railing to observe approaching shockwave on viewscreen.
9.) Shockwave hits.
10.) Shots of crewmen being thrown from their positions INCLUDING Valtane being thrown from his seat at the science station along with the two crewmen in the shot with him in item 4.
So, two Valtanes . . . or he has the ability of bilocation.
One TUC Valtane rooms with Tuvok and dies in "Flashback." The other TUC Valtane doesn't room with Tuvok and survives to appear on the widescreen at the end of TUC.
1. Sulu makes his opening log entry.
2. Valtane walks up to Sulu, clipboard in hand and makes a report to Sulu.
3.) Ship starts shuddering.
4.) Reaction shots of various crew reacting to shuddering INCLUDING Valtane aleady seated at science station.
5.) Sulu's teacup shatters to floor.
6.):Valtane leaves Sulu to head aft toward science station.
7.) Valtane pushes crewman out of his way to take station, reports, "I have an energy wave at 240 degrees mark 6 to port, sir."
8.) Valtane gets out of chair, leaves console and approaches railing to observe approaching shockwave on viewscreen.
9.) Shockwave hits.
10.) Shots of crewmen being thrown from their positions INCLUDING Valtane being thrown from his seat at the science station along with the two crewmen in the shot with him in item 4.
So, two Valtanes . . . or he has the ability of bilocation.
One TUC Valtane rooms with Tuvok and dies in "Flashback." The other TUC Valtane doesn't room with Tuvok and survives to appear on the widescreen at the end of TUC.
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Maybe in-universe the events of ST:FC altered the timeline so Valtane gets killed off prior to the final battle in ST:TUC.
Of course the real reason "Flashback" and ST:TUC don't line up is...
Of course the real reason "Flashback" and ST:TUC don't line up is...
Oh, so rather than saying that we can use "Flashback" as a precedent for Trek in-universe flashbacks not always being 100% accurate due to the fallibility of memory, you'd say "Flashback" is precedent for Trek in-universe flashbacks not always being 100% accurate due to the fact that the episodes are shoddily written.
Which still is way beside the point, as the very idea of "Flashback" was to show Tuvok imagining deaths that never happened.
That is, this was the very idea of the plot, which of course was there only to cater for the real idea of reusing TUC elements for nostalgia or whatever.
That dream sequences should be inaccurate is a foregone conclusion as such. And the classic way they would be inaccurate is that they would substitute familiar elements where unfamiliar ones would be more logical. The faces of series regulars replace the faces of random people; a familiar set serves as a location that's "actually" supposed to be an alien temple or a S31 torture chamber or whatnot. It is in this sense that we could see "The Menagerie" as perverting the ground truth of the Talosian adventure. If we weally weally wanted, that is.
Me, I'm looking forward to seeing the tribble and turbolift shorts and then going as Byzantine as I can with that new evidence.
Timo Saloniemi
That is, this was the very idea of the plot, which of course was there only to cater for the real idea of reusing TUC elements for nostalgia or whatever.
That dream sequences should be inaccurate is a foregone conclusion as such. And the classic way they would be inaccurate is that they would substitute familiar elements where unfamiliar ones would be more logical. The faces of series regulars replace the faces of random people; a familiar set serves as a location that's "actually" supposed to be an alien temple or a S31 torture chamber or whatnot. It is in this sense that we could see "The Menagerie" as perverting the ground truth of the Talosian adventure. If we weally weally wanted, that is.
Me, I'm looking forward to seeing the tribble and turbolift shorts and then going as Byzantine as I can with that new evidence.
Timo Saloniemi
Except the Disco uniforms are replacing the TOS ones in the continuity, so who's to say the Franklin unis aren't a similar replacement for the NX-costumes or the Disco ones a replacement for what they wore on the Kelvin?
Modern Trek does not lend itself to establishing technicalities. 2009-onwards made it difficult and 2017-onwards makes it impossible.
Pretty much.
I can't imagine that the writers of this episode would intentionally pull out someone who was little more than a named extra in the movie, and kill him off in Tuvoks memory just to show that memory is not infallible.
Far more likely that plot required someone to die, so they plucked out one of the bridge officers as sacrificial redshirt.
That still doesn't cut it - the plot did not merely call for folks to die, it specifically called for folks to falsely die. Tuvok was not tormented by memories, but by false memories specifically.
That Valtane really should not die despite appearing to may be a convenient coincidence or a writing masterstroke. But the point here is that "Flashback" is not a good example of a generic dream sequence, due to the extra element of built-in falsehood. It merely fits the pattern where dream sequences or flashbacks are false due to production limitations, covered up by taking "artistic liberties" - it does not exemplify this normal mechanism of falseness.
Timo Saloniemi
That Valtane really should not die despite appearing to may be a convenient coincidence or a writing masterstroke. But the point here is that "Flashback" is not a good example of a generic dream sequence, due to the extra element of built-in falsehood. It merely fits the pattern where dream sequences or flashbacks are false due to production limitations, covered up by taking "artistic liberties" - it does not exemplify this normal mechanism of falseness.
Timo Saloniemi
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