USS Enterprise (eventually) on Discovery?

[cooleddie74]

I agree. Just leave the DSC Enterprise out of it or publish a separate book altogether that focuses solely on the DSC version of the ship. Trying to fit a lot of that new material into the familiar TOS scaling and continuity and then bending logic to make a lot of it work is just throwing a match on gasoline.

 

[Timo]

Not necessarily. I think that, in principle, lasers could be used to carry heavy particles, which would do the actual damage. I don't remember exactly how that would work, but it could be a precursor to phasers that they still called "lasers" at the time.

In canon, we know of three uses of lasers: as cutting tools in "The Cage", as cutting tools in "Beside Yourself" (incidentally, the first-ever occurrence of visible laser beams in vacuum in Trek!) - and as outdated personal weapons in "A Private Little War", fitting into a continuum of muskets, breechloaders, machine guns, "old-style hand lasers" and then supposedly modern phasers.

Might be lasers ceased to be meaningful sidearms long, long before Pike's team had them as bayonets of sorts attached to their modern sidearms for cutting purposes. Might be Starfleet still thought lasers could serve as weapons, if just barely, in the 2250s.

Whether lasers ever played any role in starship combat, though... Fanon and RPGs liked to pair them with particle cannon in pre-TOS ships. Which is no problem as such, when modern technobabble essentially nails phasers as phased particle cannon anyway. The total lack of canon references to lasers need not be a showstopper there, as we saw plasma peashooters of some sort sorta-paired with phasers in early ENT, and again turrets firing white bolts paired with red beams in the Kelvin movies.

It's just that so far, starship laser have been (and remain) the one thing there has been no need to include in this mess.

Might be they were there, and didn't make a difference. Weirder things have happened. Say, pneumatic dynamite guns as naval artillery...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Henoch]

Might be lasers ceased to be meaningful sidearms long, long before Pike's team had them as bayonets of sorts attached to their modern sidearms for cutting purposes. Might be Starfleet still thought lasers could serve as weapons, if just barely, in the 2250s.

The hand phaser still has a laser setting as seen by Scotty cutting into the bulkhead in The Naked Time. Take your pick as which FX you like best:

 

[cooleddie74]

The hand phaser still has a laser setting as seen by Scotty cutting into the bulkhead in The Naked Time. Take your pick as which FX you like best:

The left hand image.

 

[DaveyNY]

Lefty's are always in their right mind.

 

[Yistaan]

I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned that Admiral Morrow's line in Star Trek 3, circa 2285, of the Enterprise being "20 years old" lines up exactly right if Morrow considers a refit of the Enterprise circa 2265 to be basically the creation of a new ship.

A 2265 refit solves the longstanding discrepancy in Morrow's line and reflects the change from Pike's Discovery Enterprise to Kirk's TOS Enterprise.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Or there never was a discrepancy and Harve was just using realtime as a reference point.

Because movie-goers have no concept of Star Trek time aside from knowing the show started 'about 20 years ago'.

 

[Henoch]

I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned that Admiral Morrow's line in Star Trek 3, circa 2285, of the Enterprise being "20 years old" lines up exactly right if Morrow considers a refit of the Enterprise circa 2265 to be basically the creation of a new ship.

A 2265 refit solves the longstanding discrepancy in Morrow's line and reflects the change from Pike's Discovery Enterprise to Kirk's TOS Enterprise.

I always thought (even given in dialog somewhat), that Kirk takes over from Pike mid-mission in 2265. Kirk inherits Pike's old crew and finishes the mission to go beyond the galaxy edge. The WNMHGB ship still looks mostly like it did during the Cage; even the same uniform style. Kirk manages to nearly wreck the ship and limps home on jury-rigged systems. The Enterprise goes into spacedock for about 10 months for refit/upgrades for a five year mission starting in mid-2266. (Roughly the real filming time difference between WNMHGB and Season 1. )

One issue: the stardates don't show a big enough gap. Maybe Starfleet reset the damn clock again while the ship was in refit in spacedock. I like to think the clock reset marks the new transition of Starfleet from under the United Earth to under the Federation. It takes half the first season to fully make the transition and work out the details.

 

[F. King Daniel]

A 2265 refit solves the longstanding discrepancy in Morrow's line and reflects the change from Pike's Discovery Enterprise to Kirk's TOS Enterprise.

Doesn't work though. The chronology is as follows:

Short Treks where Ensign Spock joins the Enterprise: Discoprise.

"The Cage": TOS Enterprise

Disco S2: Discoprise

TOS: TOS Enterprise

 

[pst]

"The Cage": TOS Enterprise

Disco S2: Discoprise

TOS: TOS Enterprise

 

[Timo]

Of course, in the strictest canon context, there is no "The Cage", and Pike's adventure is a dream sequence in the middle of "The Menagerie"...

What to take and what to leave in a dream sequence is an iffy question, though. In "Flashback", say, it's explicit that the dreams are false, part of the disease wrecking Tuvok's brain, and contain (indeed, depend on) deaths that never took place. The ships still supposedly look the same. Do the uniforms, or is it a mere fantasy of Tuvok's that Janice Rand would be his boss rather than a co-irker?

The uniforms of "The Cage" appear to be the one thing DSC intends to preserve, though. The upcoming tribble short has a crew wearing the all-Lieutenant-braid style, with the subdued grayish-navy-blues and all!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[cooleddie74]

Yeah, that was one thing that was nice to see. It may not be a simple pullover tunic with a ribbed collar but it's a helluva lot closer to "The Cage(TOS)" and "Where No Man Has Gone Before(TOS)" than anything we've seen thus far.

 

[Yistaan]

Doesn't work though. The chronology is as follows:

Short Treks where Ensign Spock joins the Enterprise: Discoprise.

"The Cage": TOS Enterprise

Disco S2: Discoprise

TOS: TOS Enterprise

The short Trek isn't even out yet. We don't know if the bridge will feature in it or not. So they have a futuristic transporter room, it could easily be a transporter room never seen in TOS. They have the futuristic uniforms, but Discovery is contradicting itself because Pike outright said the uniforms were "new" in the season 2 premiere, not that they were over 3 years old.

If the futuristic bridge is in the short trek, I'll concede your point but so far all we know of the short trek is No 1 and Spock chatting in a turbolift and transporter.

 

[cooleddie74]

At least they got the turbolift right in DSC. That thing is beautiful right down to the frosted glass or transparent aluminum with the trippy '60s pattern where the deck lights zip by.

 

[Timo]

They have the futuristic uniforms, but Discovery is contradicting itself because Pike outright said the uniforms were "new" in the season 2 premiere, not that they were over 3 years old.

Again, strictly speaking, Pike's "new" uniforms are the contextual equivalent of Burnham's "new" ship, thus something the respective parties received relatively long ago...

And in terms of in-universe logic, Pike has been out of touch with Starfleet for five years. It's quite possible the brightly colored uniforms went with that, and were issued to the Enterprise crew back in 2252-53. A bit like nuKirk got to wear bright colors only when aboard his Enterprise, in the depths of space.

Note also that the uniform that Spock leaves behind in his cabin when checking in at the funny farm is of the "new" style already...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[David cgc]

Again, strictly speaking, Pike's "new" uniforms are the contextual equivalent of Burnham's "new" ship, thus something the respective parties received relatively long ago...

Yeah, it's all relative. The Discoprise uniforms (whether the specific cut Pike was wearing at that moment, or any variation of the black pants, red/blue/gold shirt look) don't have to be new in and of themselves, they just have to be newer than the blue-and-spangles uniforms the rest of the fleet is wearing (which, we know from the Saru Short Trek, are pretty old). At the end of Voyager, someone talking to or about them referring to the FC uniforms wouldn't be crazy for calling them "the new uniforms," in relation to "the old uniforms" the Voyager crew was still wearing, even though the FC uniforms had been around for five years at that point.

 

[cooleddie74]

The DSC-style uniforms may have been around even longer than the ENT-era United Earth Starfleet uniforms, which were worn in one variant or another for at least 18 years(2143-61). We know from Star Trek 2009 that the pullover tunics with belts worn by Captain Robau and George Kirk on the Kelvin were the uniform in 2233 of the Prime Timeline and the Saru Short Trek clearly shows that the DSC uniforms were already in use by the mid-to-late 2240s.

The DSC uniforms and their Enterprise variants are at least the third distinct uniform design used by Starfleet since the founding of the Federation if we also count the zippered jumpsuits from 2164 that were clearly influenced by the uniforms used on ENT.

 

[Timo]

The DSC uniforms and their Enterprise variants

...It seems more as if the "Enterprise variant" is supposed to replace the DSC style altogether (although no doubt featuring all sorts of associated variants such as jumpsuits and dress uniforms and whatnot, essentially what we get in TOS), what with being considered "new" and all. But the tribble short may complicate that issue further.

the zippered jumpsuits from 2164 that were clearly influenced by the uniforms used on ENT.

The what again?

Edit: Ah, Edison's...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[valkyrie013]

From some of the behind the scenes photos, the pike enterprise informs look uncomfortable.. So stiff they kinda stand up in there own..
Rather like the kelven version, more "in line" with tos asthetic, and to me it looks more comfortable to wear, which is a must for daily wear, it's not a stuffy dress uniform.

 

[Tuskin38]

The short Trek isn't even out yet. We don't know if the bridge will feature in it or not. So they have a futuristic transporter room, it could easily be a transporter room never seen in TOS. They have the futuristic uniforms, but Discovery is contradicting itself because Pike outright said the uniforms were "new" in the season 2 premiere, not that they were over 3 years old.

If the futuristic bridge is in the short trek, I'll concede your point but so far all we know of the short trek is No 1 and Spock chatting in a turbolift and transporter.

You're taking this way too seriously.