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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x14 - "Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2"

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I still don't understand why the probe vexes you so much. But part of the reason why my enjoyment of the season fell off a cliff after Project Daedalus is it seems like the entire back half of the season was engineered solely to tee up the third season. It makes me wonder if Kurtzman thought that Berg/Harberts plan for the season arc was such unmitigated garbage/so unworkable, that he was more focused on clearing the board for the next season than telling a story which was compelling in any way beyond some character moments.
Its not vexing to me I just find it odd that they would go to such lengths to try and align everything in the way they have yet miss something so glaring and central to the whole plotline, perhaps it will be resolved in season 3 or in one of the upcoming short treks.

It's possible that their idea was received poorly by Kurtzman or deemed unworkable for whatever reason, perhaps CBS realised that they had a hit with Pike/Spock and decided to make use of the latter half of the season as a Pike/Enterprise taster, the last two episodes felt more like a launchpad for Pike/Enterprise than as a finale for Discovery.

It's hard to tell for sure, we may never know.
 
Can't speak for @Gonzo here, but the altered probe from the future plothole is a pretty good indicator for the writers not really thinking the Control/Red Angel storyline through. It doesn't bother me more or less than all the other signs of the arc not really adding up.
Or it's not as over as it appears to be.

It is the one event that most of the plotline rests on but they could just ignore it, based on the way they have tried to force everything into alignment it just seems odd that they would miss such an obvious pivotal event.

It doesn't really fit that they would ignore it either, at least to me.
 
Can't speak for @Gonzo here, but the altered probe from the future plothole is a pretty good indicator for the writers not really thinking the Control/Red Angel storyline through. It doesn't bother me more or less than all the other signs of the arc not really adding up.

I mean, there's some temporal issues, but not a plot hole as far as I can see. Discovery's probe went into the "time tsunami" and jumped forward 500 years. That was a timeline where Control won. Control assimilated the probe, sent it back and it attacked the shuttlecraft and downloaded malware onto Airiam. After finally defeating "Leland" the Discovery crew ensured that Control wouldn't dominate the galaxy 500 years in the future. This created no temporal paradox in the present, because only the future was altered.

One could argue it created a paradox insofar as the future timeline never existed, therefore the probe could never have been sent in the first place, but if you take the strict deterministic view of time travel then it is not possible to have a TL where Control is defeated at all - only one where it either wins or never exists. Also there are plenty of examples of this in Trek history. For example Storm Front in Season 4 of Enterprise basically butterflied the entire Temporal Cold War out of existence, yet it's not like Jonathan Archer & Co suddenly lost all memory of Daniels existing.
 
I mean, there's some temporal issues, but not a plot hole as far as I can see. Discovery's probe went into the "time tsunami" and jumped forward 500 years. That was a timeline where Control won. Control assimilated the probe, sent it back and it attacked the shuttlecraft and downloaded malware onto Airiam. After finally defeating "Leland" the Discovery crew ensured that Control wouldn't dominate the galaxy 500 years in the future. This created no temporal paradox in the present, because only the future was altered.

One could argue it created a paradox insofar as the future timeline never existed, therefore the probe could never have been sent in the first place, but if you take the strict deterministic view of time travel then it is not possible to have a TL where Control is defeated at all - only one where it either wins or never exists. Also there are plenty of examples of this in Trek history. For example Storm Front in Season 4 of Enterprise basically butterflied the entire Temporal Cold War out of existence, yet it's not like Jonathan Archer & Co suddenly lost all memory of Daniels existing.

The probe also did what it did while it and the shuttle were still inside the time vortex, being shielded from anomalies in some way (as Trek usually has happen).
Both true but its effects still remain in the present, if the sending of the probe has truly been undone by the death of Control then it should never have happened in the first place.

Its not a paradox until everything is truly settled, there is still the possibility that the future has not been fixed and/or the remains of Leland/Control are not entirely dead.

As I said they may just ignore it which is fine but I have a feeling it may not be over.

Odd for them to go to such lengths to resolve as much as possible yet miss or ignore that.
 
I think the Control issue has been completely solved, which is consistent with season 1, where the Klingon war has been elucidated in a couple of minutes.

Which is kinda puzzling BTW, because we know that there will be a Klingon conflict up until the second season of TOS which is quite a few years in the future of DSC. So what happened... Was that the same war not completely resolved or another one started for who knows what?
 
Both true but its effects still remain in the present, if the sending of the probe has truly been undone by the death of Control then it should never have happened in the first place.

Its not a paradox until everything is truly settled, there is still the possibility that the future has not been fixed and/or the remains of Leland/Control are not entirely dead.

As I said they may just ignore it which is fine but I have a feeling it may not be over.

Odd for them to go to such lengths to resolve as much as possible yet miss or ignore that.

How did McCoy save Edith Keeler's live if saving her life erased his the timeline that allowed him go into the past to save her?
 
I think the Control issue has been completely solved, which is consistent with season 1, where the Klingon war has been elucidated in a couple of minutes.

Which is kinda puzzling BTW, because we know that there will be a Klingon conflict up until the second season of TOS which is quite a few years in the future of DSC. So what happened... Was that the same war not completely resolved or another one started for who knows what?

Klingon gripes rarely remain solved for long. The west thought Russian belligerence ended with the end of the Soviet Union too, and how did that work out in the long run?
 
How did McCoy save Edith Keeler's live if saving her life erased his the timeline that allowed him go into the past to save her?
Predestined Time Loop, that is the way it always was.

Or a Divergent Time Bubble that was yet to be resolved, until it was.

Or their actions created a past that was similar enough not to make a massive difference in the areas that counted.

Bit like in SG1 where the only difference was that there were now fish in Jacks pond.

The problem with the probe right now is we dont know the mechanism or sequence of events that cause it to end up there, they will either ignore it or show us using a Short Trek or we will find out in Season 3 as it will be a part of the plotline.

If some part of Leland/Control still exists somewhere on the Discovery it could be the sender.

The matter may be resolved in the present but that could be because there is a good chance that the Discovery took the problem with them instead.

I am aware of what the showrunners said but I dont believe everything I am told whether it matches my needs or not, I have a suspicion that Anson Mount is telling well meant porkies as well but time will tell.
 
Predestined Time Loop, that is the way it always was.

Or a Divergent Time Bubble that was yet to be resolved, until it was.

Or their actions created a past that was similar enough not to make a massive difference in the areas that counted.

Bit like in SG1 where the only difference was that there were now fish in Jacks pond.

The problem with the probe right now is we dont know the mechanism or sequence of events that cause it to end up there, they will either ignore it or show us using a Short Trek or we will find out in Season 3 as it will be a part of the plotline.

If some part of Leland/Control still exists somewhere on the Discovery it could be the sender.

The matter may be resolved in the present but that could be because there is a good chance that the Discovery took the problem with them instead.

I am aware of what the showrunners said but I dont believe everything I am told whether it matches my needs or not, I have a suspicion that Anson Mount is telling well meant porkies as well but time will tell.

It could just be the saving of a new version of Universe.docx over the old version of Universe.docx. Just because page 500 no longer is the same page 500, doesn't mean what you copied to page 200 doesn't erase what you copied from the now nonexistant page and completely changed narrative that moving the paragraph initiates in the rewrite. It could be just as simple as that.
 
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Anyone know how they achieved the physical effects for Burnham's time jump? The sparks, specifically.
Currently thinking angle grinder(s), but am wondering how they handled impacts on the visor.
 
saving the universe - captain picard is a women - enterprise D got a third nacelle

... and totally stOOpid

Yeah I mean it looks cool like a hot rod..... But yeah even me not a fan of AGT I wasn't that enthused with the story. I mean sure AGT ties into the very first episode of TNG but it's not one of those stories that gets me enthused to watch it again. But then it's not as bad as Sub Rosa.


Its not vexing to me I just find it odd that they would go to such lengths to try and align everything in the way they have yet miss something so glaring and central to the whole plotline, perhaps it will be resolved in season 3 or in one of the upcoming short treks.

It's possible that their idea was received poorly by Kurtzman or deemed unworkable for whatever reason, perhaps CBS realised that they had a hit with Pike/Spock and decided to make use of the latter half of the season as a Pike/Enterprise taster, the last two episodes felt more like a launchpad for Pike/Enterprise than as a finale for Discovery.

It's hard to tell for sure, we may never know.


OH imagine being a fly on the wall during those writers meetings.
 
Yes, as would I. I know, some think there wasn't really a change of plan with the arc for season two and that it was all planned like that from the beginning, but that's not how it feels to me. Would really love to know what the original idea behind the signals was going to be and how the initial theme hinted at in the first episodes would have played. And I'm still curious why the technology on Kaminar seems to have been deliberately designed to resemble the Preservers' from TOS. Add to that the transplanted group of Earth people from “New Eden” resembling the transplanted group of Earth people from “The Paradise Syndrome”. Was that all just a coincidence?

It seemed to me the plot was going in one direction up until Light and Shadows. It felt like a big shift in plot direction from investigating a nebulous, possibly malevolent, red angel doing some mysterious thing to Control being the big bad... when there was no hint before then of Control being a thing, at all.

At least Lorca had some hints dropped about not behaving as he should to set up his mirror universe origins. When we encountered the probe in Light and Shadows I just figured the probe self-evolved when lost for 500 years and came back feral.

I'm getting this feeling that the implied story direction from the early episodes is so much better than what we actually got. It's like the Clone Wars in Star Wars- the description from others is a lot more interesting than what we actually see filmed... and I'd rather see that implied story.
 
Such Sweet Sorrow Part 2
The finale of season 2, continuing from where the previous episode left off. There is a lot here, to break down. It's a foregone conclusion that Spock wouldn't end up in the future, or that the Enterprise wouldn't be destroyed. Like the rest of the season there are many plot threads running through the episode. There is the overall battle, the events on Discovery, the events on Enterprise and Spock and Burnham. And there's more there too, Control attempting to gain the Sphere Data by infiltrating Discovery.
And the Klingons and Kelpians showing up to help fight against Control. Certainly interesting. Discovery. The beginning scenes, where the suit is being built were appropriately hectic, given that the battle had begun. However, what doesn't work was where the injured Stamets finds that Culbur had come back to Discovery to be with him. He'd still be working out his identity issues. Such wouldn't be resolved very quickly. In any case, the battle between Georgiou and Leland was done very well.
Excellent choreography. On the Enterprise, there was appropriate tension around the torpedo being stuck in the hull. The tension was in how much damage would be done to the ship as a result of the torpedo detonating. However, I'm not sure why Admiral Cornwell wanted to sacrifice herself. Surely one of those repair drones could have beamed into the room to pull the manual release? There wasn't any hint in the Admiral's actions as to why she would want to sacrifice herself. A big mystery.
As big a mystery that is Number One's name still is. (That's all she gives the debriefing officer?) Burnham and Spock. Did we need to see the previous Red Angel encounters from her point of view? Certainly, it explained some things, but it distracted from the battle scenes. Spock's farewell to Burnham was well written. That Burnham was his balance, seems interesting, but likely will go nowhere, given that the next season will be in the future (and a Pike series seems unlikely.) But that was a good scene.
Then there were the concluding scenes. It is reasonable to expect the Enterprise crew to come up with a cover story. (But whether Starfleet believes it is another thing.) Discovery and it's technology (like the Spore Drive) being classified was a foregone conclusion. However, the ending with the Enterprise crew beginning another mission was a rather good ending (leading into the unlikely Pike series). 7.8/10.


Season 2 Overall
While I did like this season better than season 1, I admit that it was a mess. Deep Space Nine season 1 was more consistent and better written, with Move Along Home (and potentially If Wishes Were Horses) being the outlier(s) there. (Clearly, I did a simultaneous re-watch, so as to compare the faith storylines. Terralysium vs. Bajor, but the series diverged. One can't compare CONTROL with the Dominion.) In any case, the faith-Red Angel storyline was convoluted, to say the least. The storylines in Doctor Who series 6 were easier to follow.
Then there's what happened with Spock and his relationship with Burnham. Unlike others I don't think his character was assassinated. It was expanded. More on that later. Then there's Pike and his fate, with If Memory Serves being the highlight there (as well as the season overall) rather than Through the Valley of Shadows. It's not all about Burnham. Talking about Michael, her plotline was interesting. It was good to see her working out how the overall scenario with the Red Angel and the signals.
There is also her family issues, not just with Spock, but also with Amanda and her actual mother, Gabriel. More on that below. The Tilly/May storyline may have gone over several episodes, but it seems to have been resolved in Saints of Imperfection. Still a bit unresolved. Then from that episode, it is replaced with the Stamets/Culbur storyline, which doesn't seem that realistic, beyond Culbur's identity struggles. Trying to squeeze too much into the storylines most likely. Of course there's Section 31 and their hubris leading to the situation with Control.
(Not outlined explicitly of course, just implicitly, and possibly by mistake). There's also the Klingon storyline. Not much to say about that. Anyhow, Spock. I wasn't sure what to make of the psychopathic implications to begin with, nor the dyslexia (the latter of which was probably not accurate from a human point of view. But who knows what the interaction with Vulcan traits could cause with such a disorder.) But more importantly, he's a younger Spock, who is still maturing. And he seems to be well on the way as the series end's.
(Clearly the implication is that Kirk replaces Burnham as his balance as that particular 5 year mission goes on.) Back to Burnham. Her trying to reconnect with her mother is what drives her as time goes on. Not only does she want to defeat CONTROL, she wants to reconnect with her mother. The events of Perpetual Infinity only serve to intensify that desire. There are many unresolved plot issues (not the least of which is Number One's name, possible subtitles aside), but overall a season worth watching, just not as good as a certain series of Star Trek produced in the 1990's.
7.68/10.
 
It seemed to me the plot was going in one direction up until Light and Shadows. It felt like a big shift in plot direction from investigating a nebulous, possibly malevolent, red angel doing some mysterious thing to Control being the big bad... when there was no hint before then of Control being a thing, at all.

At least Lorca had some hints dropped about not behaving as he should to set up his mirror universe origins. When we encountered the probe in Light and Shadows I just figured the probe self-evolved when lost for 500 years and came back feral.

I'm getting this feeling that the implied story direction from the early episodes is so much better than what we actually got. It's like the Clone Wars in Star Wars- the description from others is a lot more interesting than what we actually see filmed... and I'd rather see that implied story.


Like I said imagine being a fly on the wall during the writing meetings just to see why and what changed.


For me I got the impression after "If Memory Serves" the show felt like it had changed direction, because up until then it felt like it was going in one direction then the episode after as you mention it just changes.
 
there was no hint before then of Control being a thing, at all.
I remember pretty early in the season I went to the Memory Beta article and read up on Control again because it was mentioned.

So doing a quick search through the transcripts it looks like first mention is at the end of episode 3 when Leland tells Georgiou that "Control values [Ash's] skillset". It's not much, I know. But, like Lorca's agonizer scar, it definitely made me go 'does that mean what I think it means?'

Then at the end of episode 6, right before Light and Shadows, we get a conversation between Pike and Tyler with a little clue:

Tyler: Control, which models Section 31's threat-assessments, is probably rightfully alarmed by [the Red Angel].
...
Pike: Section 31-- and Control's threat-assessment models seem a bit paranoid.

Because the transcript is a mess I went back and watched this scene. Right at that pause in Pike's statement is when the music kicks in, just as he's saying Control is paranoid. It actually feels a bit ominous in hindsight.
 
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