Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x14 - "Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2"

[Alan Roi]

Wasn't that the plan all along anyway, though, however problematic? The plan was to escape to the future to avoid being found by Leland. Leaving him behind makes him Starfleet's problem. It would've made more sense if they threw HIM into the future rather than the sphere data.

No, leaving proto-genocidal AI behind to turn eventually into Nomad in 500 years was not the plan. In fact that is the opposite of the plan.

or, more sucinctly:

"Not killing Hitler is exactly what you don't build a time machine not to do." - Jennifer, 12 Monkeys.

 

[saladdays]

The way Tyler asked if they've neutralized it and the investigator only replied with a curt "We have" indicated to me there's a story there left untold. Explaining just a little bit more would've helped me a great deal to sleep at night.

Yeah, a bit more may have been helpful there. But maybe they are leaving options open. But I think those lines there are enough to show that Control still would have been a problem if Discovery didn't complete it's objective.

 

[oberth]

The way Tyler asked if they've neutralized it and the investigator only replied with a curt "We have" indicated to me there's a story there left untold. Explaining just a little bit more would've helped me a great deal to sleep at night.

looking at your avatar you seem to have no problem to get some slepp whenever you want

 

[Amasov]

The dead body is only a problem if they are foolish enough to leave it in the Spore Room before turning off the magnetic field that Georgieu created.
It looked to me like the once she turned it on it pulled all the nanites out.

No, you're right. I don't disagree. I just think with all the emphasis placed on trying to get away from Leland, I would imagine that the moment he is defeated, perhaps eject him into space or through the wormhole instead of Discovery, itself. It's my horror movie mentality of wanting to ensure your killer is really dead.

 

[SolarisOne]

It looked to me like the once she turned it on it pulled all the nanites out.

Just like Terminator: Genisys. A lot of the stuff this season was ripped off taken from the Terminator franchise.

 

[Ovation]

Right, but the army it sent after the data, and its avatar in Leland, had been defeated. Putting aside the validity of the wormhole plan to start with, why was it still necessary to jump immediately? There was no immediate threat and the data was securely back in Discovery's hands. And if whatever's left of Control could be (apparently) purged by Starfleet, it seems like the crew doomed themselves to be stranded in the far future for virtually no reason.

I don’t usually quote myself but

The "why still go to the future?" bit that seems to bother some people--could have been made clearer, but I found the sequence of "Control is neutralized" (announced by a less than fully reliable narrator), the Control ships are all dead in the water, and entering the wormhole at a seemingly slow pace to be an only partially successful attempt at illustrating the time dilation effects that should be occurring as they approach the wormhole horizon (though I'm no physicist, so I stand ready to be corrected--worked well enough for me in the moment). Though perhaps not entirely successful, I appreciated the effort.

 

[Alan Roi]

Right, but the army it sent after the data, and its avatar in Leland, had been defeated. Putting aside the validity of the wormhole plan to start with, why was it still necessary to jump immediately? There was no immediate threat and the data was securely back in Discovery's hands. And if whatever's left of Control could be (apparently) purged by Starfleet, it seems like the crew doomed themselves to be stranded in the far future for virtually no reason.

Has it, though, can you be 100% sure? We know that Section 31 ships can cloak themselves. We know that Control can take over multiple bodies. How do they know that all the Section 31 ships falling silent isn't a trick?

 

[SJGardner]

Yeah, a bit more may have been helpful there. But maybe they are leaving options open. But I think those lines there are enough to show that Control still would have been a problem if Discovery didn't complete it's objective.

Exactly. My first thought was that no matter the outcome, we can't be sure if Control is truly gone after the battle, and even if it is, the Sphere data is just far too dangerous to be left in anyone's hands. Given the Federation's penchant for creating experimental technology that goes horribly wrong (or even horribly right in some cases), it's probably the best they didn't leave it lying around for Richard Daystrom, Section 31, or maybe, in a worst case scenario, for the Tal Shiar to get it and try to make something stupid with it.

 

[Michael]

My problem with Gabrielle Burnham‘s Red Angel suit is not necessarily how it does all the various things it is capable of – it‘s basically the Swiss army knife of magic Trek devices – but why it was built that way. Why would a time travel suit designed for the express purpose of ”investigating the past“ be capable of moving churches, disabling defenses, setting signals and raising the dead? It doesn‘t really make sense.

Or does it? Gabrielle Burnham was an operative for Section 31, so maybe the Project Daedalus mission wasn‘t all that scientific and benevolent it was made out to be. Hence, she equipped the suit with defensive abilities. Later, she learned how to upgrade the suit with future tech she was observing during all her incursions in the centuries before her time on Terralysium.

Am I doing it right, @Alan Roi?

 

[Starflight]

I don’t usually quote myself but

That's a cool reading, but I'm fairly certain the ships were neutralised instantaneously after Georgiou magnetised Leland. All the ships were controlled directly by him, somehow. Discovery had time to see that, and Georgiou directly tells Saru.

Has it, though, can you be 100% sure? We know that Section 31 ships can cloak themselves. We know that Control can take over multiple bodies. How do they know that all the Section 31 ships falling silent isn't a trick?

If the crew were putting that level of thought into it, then it's really strange to make the jump with Leland still aboard the ship. They were intending to make the jump while he was still actually alive which would have stranded them in the future with him still aboard and literally only the crew standing between him and the data, but even with him dead, there's no way they can't know Control hasn't possessed Georgiou or Nhan or anyone else Leland encountered. I really can't see any situation where the wormhole jump was a necessary option, or even a good option.

 

[Kemaiku]

They did say it was an arms race to develop weaponised time travel systems as the Klingons were working on their own.

It sounds like Leland arranged to sabotage the Klingon side of it by stealing their time crystal, and through his oft-mentioned incompetance, allowed them to catch up and attack the planet.

 

[Noname Given]

I believe that the Original Seven Signals seen by Spock and then Star Fleet, is part of the Faith aspect of story.
(but it got lost by the wayside when the changes in staffing took place)

Somehow and in someway, it was meant to convey that the "Universe" projected the signals for all to see as an advanced warning of what was to come..

It's probably not logical at all, but then again having Faith very rarely is.

^^^
Oh BS - the Universe had nothing to do with it. I was designed as presented, that Burnham's mother was manipulating the timeline (unsuccessfully); and Burnham herself was the result of the 7 signals. (IE the 'staff change up' changed nothing as this was completely plotted out and 5 scripts done. I seriously doubt they didn't know exactly how they were going to end it with 5 scripts completed when the people were fired.)

The 'faith' portion was mostly 'faith in yourself' and 'faith in others/your crew mates'. Any real 'Religious faith' aspects WERE the 'red herring here (and also planned/plotted beforehand.)

 

[oberth]

*Neuralyzer flash* There's no such thing as a Crossfield class. There's never been such a thing as a Crossfield class.

two things that are squatting in my mind for quite some time

1. if we have a cultcross class (or was it crossfield?) why is there no typeship for that class?
2. as this ships were kinda black projects could their low hull numbers come from the idea to hide those ships in the past? meaning: a hullnumber that should have been used years (probably decades) ago is a lot less visible than an actual one. those two numbers might have been assigned to ships never built and used to guard the fact that ncc 1031 is in fact a lot more modern than ncc 1701

Q: where are glenn and discovery
A: seen their hullnumbers? we scrapped both these clunkers before the war

 

[DaveyNY]

I think that once Burnham programmed in the final sequence, which included taking the Discovery along, there's was no stopping to figure things out beyond what had already been decided.

Perhaps the first episode of the third season will allay the problems some folks are having.

Since it's obvious that this is a topic that's going to be discussed to death till the horse it was riding is nothing but a pile of bones, and we've got a few months before the next season starts filming...

I'm pretty sure that the writers of the show will attempt to close the barn door after the fact, just the keep the visitors to the farm from wandering in and talking to death the other farm animals.

 

[Alan Roi]

If the crew were putting that level of thought into it, then it's really strange to make the jump with Leland still aboard the ship. They were intending to make the jump while he was still actually alive which would have stranded them in the future with him still aboard and literally only the crew standing between him and the data, but even with him dead, there's no way they can't know Control hasn't possessed Georgiou or Nhan or anyone else Leland encountered. I really can't see any situation where the wormhole jump was a necessary option, or even a good option.

How was there time?

One thing I noticed about the plot of the season is the mission changed as new information came to olight. First it was find what the bursts are all about. once that was accomplished it becampe how do we stop the future from happening, ultimately it becomes we have stop Control from taking over the Federation right effing now, because that has become what's most important, IMO. This season features severe mission creep, yes I agree that my theory requires, that but IMO, the narrative calls for it.

 

[SJGardner]

It just occured to me, but if Control is actually contained within Leland, with all the ships simply being remote controlled by him, then it's all the better reason to take Discovery to the future with him on board. Deny the Section 31 fleet the server that's sending their orders and also deny Control!Leland any major infrastructure he could use, leaving him with only whatever he can reach aboard the Discovery. They have to save the world in the present of the 23rd century, so whatever he manages to do once they've crossed over and closed the wormhole doesn't really matter anymore.

 

[XCV330]

My problem with Gabrielle Burnham‘s Red Angel suit is not necessarily how it does all the various things it is capable of – it‘s basically the Swiss army knife of magic Trek devices – but why it was built that way. Why would a time travel suit designed for the express purpose of ”investigating the past“ be capable of moving churches, disabling defenses, setting signals and raising the dead? It doesn‘t really make sense.

Or does it? Gabrielle Burnham was an operative for Section 31, so maybe the Project Daedalus mission wasn‘t all that scientific and benevolent it was made out to be. Hence, she equipped the suit with defensive abilities. Later, she learned how to upgrade the suit with future tech she was observing during all her incursions in the centuries before her time on Terralysium.

Am I doing it right, @Alan Roi?

Doctor Burnham doesn't seem all that "I am a starfleet officer, i believe in compassion, love" creed that Pike lived by.

I know she's had a rough spot, but seriously, she didn't bother to see her daughter because she'd watched her die a bunch already. She taunted Pike with his horrible demise. She picked Spock to handle her message because he had a learning disability. She played brinkmanship with reality because it was her way or nothing. She claimed to know so much about multiple realities. I really have to wonder how she managed to play groundhog day for decades or centuries without aging. Maybe she united all her copies and she's the Rick Sanchez army of star trek. I'm not really infatuated with her. but she's a fascinating character. I don't think I'd like to see her every week on Discovery.

Red Angel suit definitely seems more like a temporal weapons delivery system, except it did not really work the way it was supposed to. Maybe they just can't. If it had been possible any of the factions from the temporal cold war would have tried it.

 

[Noname Given]

Try "Identity" two parter. That has arguably even better battle that Discovery Season 2 finale (even same plot point about a former enemy coming to help at the last second, but then again, it's a sci-fi trope done to death) without any head-scratching plot holes.

LOL - you mean "The Orville" episode where the Admiral stated it would take MONTHS to recall the Fleet, yet when the Kaylon's appear - Hey look, the 'Fleet' is there...Plus somehow the Krill have a MASSIVE fleet available and in range of Earth (which begs the question -- If that is indeed the case; WHY haven't the Krill ravaged Earth previously (as hey Earth people are all 'Heretics' deserving of death in the eyes of the Krill.)

 

[SJGardner]

two things that are squatting in my mind for quite some time

1. if we have a cultcross class (or was it crossfield?) why is there no typeship for that class?
2. as this ships were kinda black projects could their low hull numbers come from the idea to hide those ships in the past? meaning: a hullnumber that should have been used years (probably decades) ago is a lot less visible than an actual one. those two numbers might have been assigned to ships never built and used to guard the fact that ncc 1031 is in fact a lot more modern than ncc 1701

Q: where are glenn and discovery
A: seen their hullnumbers? we scrapped both these clunkers before the war

Well, Starfleet registry numbers were never ever consistent, given that the brand new USS Prometheus (NX-59650) had a number lower than the USS Melbourne (NCC-62043), the original configuration Excelsior offered to Riker in BoBW, but you can devise any in-universe explanations for it, from old ships taken out of mothballs to simply using an unassigned number batch. I never gave it much thought. I wonder from time to time what the story of the USS Crossfield might be. Who knows?

 

[Starflight]

How was there time?

One thing I noticed about the plot of the season is the mission changed as new information came to olight. First it was find what the bursts are all about. once that was accomplished it becampe how do we stop the future from happening, ultimately it becomes we have stop Control from taking over the Federation right effing now, because that has become what's most important, IMO. This season features severe mission creep, yes I agree that my theory requires, that but IMO, the narrative calls for it.

I'm not really with the writers when they have everyone decide to jump to the future to start with, so I'm not with them at all by the time the jump is continuing to go ahead with Control aboard the very ship they've got to send to the future to stop Control from boarding.

Taking the show to the far future is obviously something Kurtzman wanted to do, but it feels like the steps to get us to the point where something so drastic was necessary were skipped or glossed over, and so we go from "the data won't let us delete it, hmm" to "it just raised the shields when we fired on it" to "we're going to have to build a timesuit and have Burnham sacrifice herself by hauling the ship into a wormhole" in a short amount of time with little explanation between each step. The mission creep you describe happens very fast and seems propelled by the crew leaping to the most extreme and dangerous idea they can think of after barely even trying much more obvious and potentially more successful ideas.

It just occured to me, but if Control is actually contained within Leland, with all the ships simply being remote controlled by him, then it's all the better reason to take Discovery to the future with him on board. Deny the Section 31 fleet the server that's sending their orders and also deny Control!Leland any major infrastructure he could use, leaving him with only whatever he can reach aboard the Discovery. They have to save the world in the present of the 23rd century, so whatever he manages to do once they've crossed over and closed the wormhole doesn't really matter anymore.

Given that they don't really explain how Control will merge with the data, and that they don't know what awaits them on the other side of the wormhole, I can't really see this. If Leland finally turns his phaser off stun and does more than lightly graze people with it, he could kill the crew and render Discovery a ghost ship with all the time he needs to interface with the data, and there might be no Federation or Federation-equivalent in that time to stop him.

I guess that does save the 23rd century, though.