Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker - Teaser Trailer
- Thread starter MacLeod
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Good point.
Looking over some of the recent posts, the issue (for me) was never all the OT characters having a happily ever after, but more so being treated with dignity as they pass the torch. I don't think the sequels have done that for the most part. I don't care about the OT characters being killed off, it's a matter of how they are dispatched. Look at how unceremoniously a fan favorite like Akbar was treated. As the actor Tom Kane, who voiced him, points out, the Holdo Maneuver could've been/should've been his moment (or I would also say Leia's).
When I think of the EU, there was tragedy, loss, and suffering, but there was also hope from the Big Three and other OT heroes, and resilience. They were challenged, they sometimes lost, but they were never broken. I felt the sequels overdid it in the breaking department. When I think of the prequels, the Jedi were decimated, but they were never completely defeated. Their retreat had purpose. It wasn't like Luke who just ran away, or Han who also ran away-though I got Han doing it more than Luke, until the film Solo which showed Han was just a sometimes scruffy guy that always had a heart of gold. They at least could've said he ran back to Qi'ra.
Darth Caedus was a better conceived and mostly realized villain than Kylo Ren. Though it went awry as the series went on, the buildup to Caedus was quite good and Jacen made for a chilling villain. After Ren took off the mask and had that temper tantrum for the first time in TFA, the first of many temper tantrums, his mystique evaporated. The only thing I give Ren is that his costume/uniform looks better than the art I've seen for Caedus. I would rather have Chewbacca die defying the Yuuzhan Vong than riding with Porgs, as a mostly useless side character. And Anakin Solo's death was more affecting than any sequel characters' demise thus far.
I read Legacy-which I really enjoyed-though I didn't care for the lead character, Cade Skywalker. And from what I recall, the heroes did eventually win in the end, though there was the sequel series, with a new lead, Ania Solo, which had smaller stakes, but a decent villain as well. Unfortunately the sale to Disney I'm guessing played a role in that series being wrapped up quickly. Even when good eventually wins in the sequels, in a few years there will be another evil that has to be vanquished. That's just the way it goes, especially with a franchise like Star Wars.
The EU had the advantage of only being limited by imagination so they created different kinds of threats. Not all were great, but I would take Thrawn, Joruus C'Baoth, Durge, Carnor Jax, Darth Caedus, Darth Krayt and the One Sith, the Imperial Remnant, Lumiya, the Lost Tribe of Sith, Abeloth, the Killiks, Admiral Daala, and the Yuuzhan Vong over Hux, Ren, and Snoke any day.
When I think of the EU, there was tragedy, loss, and suffering, but there was also hope from the Big Three and other OT heroes, and resilience. They were challenged, they sometimes lost, but they were never broken. I felt the sequels overdid it in the breaking department. When I think of the prequels, the Jedi were decimated, but they were never completely defeated. Their retreat had purpose. It wasn't like Luke who just ran away, or Han who also ran away-though I got Han doing it more than Luke, until the film Solo which showed Han was just a sometimes scruffy guy that always had a heart of gold. They at least could've said he ran back to Qi'ra.
Darth Caedus was a better conceived and mostly realized villain than Kylo Ren. Though it went awry as the series went on, the buildup to Caedus was quite good and Jacen made for a chilling villain. After Ren took off the mask and had that temper tantrum for the first time in TFA, the first of many temper tantrums, his mystique evaporated. The only thing I give Ren is that his costume/uniform looks better than the art I've seen for Caedus. I would rather have Chewbacca die defying the Yuuzhan Vong than riding with Porgs, as a mostly useless side character. And Anakin Solo's death was more affecting than any sequel characters' demise thus far.
I read Legacy-which I really enjoyed-though I didn't care for the lead character, Cade Skywalker. And from what I recall, the heroes did eventually win in the end, though there was the sequel series, with a new lead, Ania Solo, which had smaller stakes, but a decent villain as well. Unfortunately the sale to Disney I'm guessing played a role in that series being wrapped up quickly. Even when good eventually wins in the sequels, in a few years there will be another evil that has to be vanquished. That's just the way it goes, especially with a franchise like Star Wars.
The EU had the advantage of only being limited by imagination so they created different kinds of threats. Not all were great, but I would take Thrawn, Joruus C'Baoth, Durge, Carnor Jax, Darth Caedus, Darth Krayt and the One Sith, the Imperial Remnant, Lumiya, the Lost Tribe of Sith, Abeloth, the Killiks, Admiral Daala, and the Yuuzhan Vong over Hux, Ren, and Snoke any day.
Im excited for ROS, and honestly hope that that the prequel trilogy and sequel trilogy play huge parts in this end of the saga. Im like everyone here. I saw the good and bad in the prequels, more good than bad for the me. I still ignore the shakey stuff but the prequels for me are the strongest from the standpoint of the bigger conflict of the JEDI VS THE SITH, everything else is secondary. The Anakin Padme Obi Wan triangle against Palpatine makes it more personal to me.
As for the Sequel Trilogy, it seems so narrow and groan inducing to have Han Solo as a dead beat dad to create Kylo Ren. There is so much of a huge hole in the Sequel Trilogy that has me saying over and over, "What the hell happened?" Its weird to me that the novelizations DONT help in this regard.
Luke's story arc is puzzling at first, until you realize that Johnson took everything too literally that Luke was influenced and experienced. It helps soften the shock of Luke Skywalker the hero to Luke Skywalker the recluse. But again I finally understood. Luke was shaken and affected by both Yoda and Obi-Wan and did the same things they did. They were his teachers his real fathers.
The biggest problem with all this is you dont throw away the past and call it a complete saga. It makes no sense to do so. The Empire is the Empire, the Rebellion, the Jedi and the Sith, sure have new concepts but there has to be a foundation to grow from. You dont foresake the past to make a future.
Its weird though Ren, Hux and Snoke were weak protagonists period. Hopefully ROS changes that. I am hopeful. But damn it give us the novelization early, and not six months after this time.
-Koric
As for the Sequel Trilogy, it seems so narrow and groan inducing to have Han Solo as a dead beat dad to create Kylo Ren. There is so much of a huge hole in the Sequel Trilogy that has me saying over and over, "What the hell happened?" Its weird to me that the novelizations DONT help in this regard.
Luke's story arc is puzzling at first, until you realize that Johnson took everything too literally that Luke was influenced and experienced. It helps soften the shock of Luke Skywalker the hero to Luke Skywalker the recluse. But again I finally understood. Luke was shaken and affected by both Yoda and Obi-Wan and did the same things they did. They were his teachers his real fathers.
The biggest problem with all this is you dont throw away the past and call it a complete saga. It makes no sense to do so. The Empire is the Empire, the Rebellion, the Jedi and the Sith, sure have new concepts but there has to be a foundation to grow from. You dont foresake the past to make a future.
Its weird though Ren, Hux and Snoke were weak protagonists period. Hopefully ROS changes that. I am hopeful. But damn it give us the novelization early, and not six months after this time.
-Koric
I'm guessing they consciously hold back on filling too many gaps so that they can then fill them in with other stories. (TV shows, comics and/or dedicated novels.)
I actually think Akbar would’ve been an awful choice because it would ruin Poe’s arc. Holdo and Leia chewed him out because of him sacrificing the bombers in the beginning. Leia is clearly grooming Poe to be a leader, probably her eventual replacement and Holdo seems to know this. Since Leia is injured and she’s in command she takes charge of dealing with him as any commanding officer would do. He disobeyed orders, risked the entire fleet and what’s left of the Resistance. Yet he still thinks he’s in the right because he’s focused on short term goals and the current battle, not the war as a whole. Sometimes you have to retreat in order to win next time.
Her death causes Poe to realize the qualities of a leader and he’s instrumental in saving the Resistance while Luke faces Kylo Ren. If you use Akbar, you need that setup and it would get the same exact criticisms as Holdo, except for the notion that this was her being a feminazi for daring to criticize a man. When in reality Holdo was fully in the right and justified because she was a higher rank, knew more than him and he was clearly wrong, her being a woman is inconsequential. But someone is going to need those scenes in order to help Poe grow from a pilot to a leader. Leia would’ve worked, but they had no clue that we’d lose Carrie Fisher and I honestly can’t fault them on that. But no matter who it was, the main purpose was Poe’s development as a character showing him become a leader instead of just telling us that he’s a leader now and you have to read a comic to learn how. We actually see him earn it as opposed to Han who goes from smuggler with a heart of gold who comes in to help Luke at the end to a trusted leader in the Rebellion who keeps saying he has to leave but can’t bring himself to do it. We never really see him grow.
Akbar chewing Poe out would’ve worked but been quite silly, even though I’d buy into it fully I feel mass audiences wouldn’t. Leia would’ve absolutely wrecked everyone and possibly overshadowed the upbeat ending.
What’s the thought on making Rey a Skywalker essentially by adoption? Kylo tells her she’s a nobody in TLJ. What if during another confrontation she declares herself a Skywalker—-Luke’s heir and the one tasked with rebuilding the Jedi instead of Kylo who is actually a Skywalker by blood. It keeps the “everyone is special” theme of TLJ while maintaining Skywalker’s status.
I think you mean antagonists, protagonists are the heroes.
I guess this is the difference for me. There is an expectation of dignity but it often comes across as reverence. It seems to have an attitude of "Don't let them suffer mean nothing." Which, OK, I get that, in part. But, another part of me recognizes that these are supposed to be characters who come across as real and capable of success and failure, and failure that doesn't always serve a purpose. Again, the difference between story and real life is that everything can serve a purpose.
But, I think insisting upon dignity in death is deliberately hamstringing the story telling possibilities. Despite all of the EU mishaps, burdens, defeats and failures, we knew that Luke, Leia and Han would come through. And, while I get that, I think it is playing it very safe in a galaxy that is supposedly dangerous.
No, I would not have done the ST like Kennedy and LFL have done. But, I don't think that the OT characters deaths lack dignity either. I think each one demonstrates that these characters have power and that they do mean something. Why? Because they matter to the audience and they matter to characters in universe.
More than that I think that both Luke and Han's deaths have great impact and dignity in terms of facing down their own personal failure.
I know there is a wish for large and bigger than life heroics. But, their deaths were far more personal, more intimate, and much more moving because of what they represented.
At least to me.
Ah... no. Totally disagree. It was horrible seeing Han fall to his death and as for Luke - poor bastard.
So, you're telling me that mass audiences would've been more into Holdo chewing out Poe than Akbar? Why would either have cared? And I think it underestimates how widespread a general knowledge of Akbar might be among the masses.
And the fandom was emotionally invested in Akbar and not Holdo, so his death would mean more to fans (if not the causal viewers) and be another reminder of the end of an era. I agree that a Poe-Akbar conflict could have been similar to Holdo, though it removes the charges, and/or subtext of chauvinism/sexism/feminism in the exchange, and highlights what perhaps Johnson/Disney were trying to get over was that Poe was being a hothead and he had quite a few more things to learn to become a better leader. Though one could also read into it, that the message was Poe should trust the chain of command more. Akbar is an established, and for some revered, figure in the saga. He embodied that trust for many more than Holdo, a brand new character, and it provides the audience with more of a choice between someone the fans 'know' in Akbar versus one of the new heroes in Poe who we the audience are supposed to like and root for. Who is right? Who is wrong? And it could better hit the nail on the head when it comes the sequel's themes of generational conflict and bring more out in the open how Poe and others might feel about how Akbar and Leia's generation failed to get the job done and are no longer deserving of leadership or automatic obedience. A Poe-Akbar conflict could've led to a larger discussion than just the conflict between strong-willed personalities, with Poe being made to clearly be in the wrong and needing to be checked on it.
I don't think Poe's 'growth' was as earned as you and a bit on the nose, but when it comes to finally giving Poe more to do, I can at least give Johnson and the film that. I also don't find the ending upbeat. Luke is dead, the Resistance/Rebellion all but crushed, and Ren is in command of the First Order. It was a pretty downbeat ending.
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Could you not say the same of Rey, Poe, and Finn, that we expect them to come through, at least until the next round of films come out? And if I was Ridley, Boyeg, and Isaacs I would shudder to think what Lucasfilm has in store for them once their characters reach middle-age.
There is nothing wrong with some realism in Star Wars, to better connect the audience with the characters and have us be more accepting of the fantastical aspects of the universe, but Star Wars is a fantasy, so I have no problem with the characters having a happy ending, especially because they've deserved it. I also don't have a problem with them not having a happy ending, it's just a matter of approach. I think the sequels went out of their way to make the OT heroes failures, and it's my suspicion this was done to dull their shine and prop up the new heroes.
With Han, even though I didn't like how it was done, I can see his character arriving at that fate (especially pre-Solo), but Luke, I find it hard to buy that Hermit Luke is an organic progression from ROTJ Luke. All the OT characters failed-sometimes major-in the older films-but they weren't as broken by it, and that was a good message for the audience-especially the kids of that time. But what's the message today with the new films? That it all amounts to crap anyway? And that a new, bright shiny generation will just rise up only to become meat for the grinder (to borrow from Starship Troopers)? So, in a sense, the OT characters became arrested or regressed in the sequels and yes I would've liked to have seen Disney-Lucasfilm do more with them, give them better endings, if for no reason what these characters meant to Hollywood and pop culture. (Or at the very least, be on screen at the same time. Some of the best scenes in the sequels were the reunions of Carrie Fisher with Harrison Ford and Mark Hamill).
Don't forget the shot of the entire Rebel force all smiling and having a little party in the Falcon...Happy times!
Don't forget the shot of the entire Rebel force all smiling and having a little party in the Falcon...Happy times!
Ha.
The ending was that Rey was going to rebuild the Jedi and other people are starting to display Force abilities promising a new generation of Jedi inspired by Luke. I walked out happy.
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