Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x10 - "The Red Angel"

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

This is why I don't like time travel in Trek. It's OK as a one-off plot facilitator, like in City or last season's Magic, but it really opens up a box of worms when you think about it.

*Time-worms. Sounds cooler

 

[Yistaan]

*Time-worms. Sounds cooler

Wibbly wobbly, timey wimey.

 

[Noname Given]

Hasn't this been an issue as long as time travel has existed in Star Trek though? The question of why Trek characters don't just time travel to prevent this incident?

Kirk is mourning David's death in Star Trek 3, then using time travel to save 2 whales in the next movie without thinking of using it to save his son.

Nobody in 'City on the Edge of Forever' think that kidnapping Edith Keeler to the 23rd century and faking her death would preserve their timeline. And faking someone's death should be easy for people with futuristic knowledge like Kirk and Spock.

We know from Assignment Earth the Federation was already using time travel for historical research. No indication why people don't just use it for other things.

To be fair:

- The method of time travel in STIV was very specific, and Spock wasn't even sure he could calculate the return variables properly; and if they failed Earth itself was lost.

- Also, remember that in TOS S1 "City on the Edge of Forever"; the Guardian sent Kirk and Spock back and stated they would return ONLY if they were successful. neither Kirk nor Spock could just call to the Guardian and say: "Three to return". The only way they'd be returned was if they were successful in restoring their timeline.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

I can't see them using time travel to make it so Burham's parents don't die and Burnahm never becaomes Spock's foster sister.

Unless she had Captain Braxton or Annorax doing the temporal incursion calculations to see the impact of changing the timeline, Burnham might grow up to have a totally different childhood, and in turn having a totally different adulthood -- one that would only through unlikely coincidental circumstances lead her to having a Starfleet career anything like what we've seen -- if having a Starfleet career at all.

I personally don't think we need any reason at all for TOS Spock never mentioning her other than that Spock was notoriously secretive above his family. We didn't feel a need to have some temporal incursion explain why Spock never mentioned Sybock until TFF or never mentioned that his father is the Federation Ambassador until Journey to Babel.

Giving us a reason that involves changing the timelines, hence re-writing Burnham and Spock's childhoods, to me is far more problematic than just saying TOS Spock was secretive about family. I hope they don't go with that changing timelines story.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

The issue here was - Burnham's parents NEVER TOLD her they were part of Section 31 (and I'm not saying they should have, because it was classified, she was a child; and I doubt the parents expected what ultimately happened).

Then again, it would not have been hard for Michael to find out. Apparently all you need to do to successfully interrogate someone in the 23rd century is demand answers then hit them with a glowering stare for about :30 or so. It worked several times in this episode alone and children usually master the glowering stare early in their development.

*Time-worms. Sounds cooler

"Temporal worms" sounds even coolier.

Wibbly wobbly, timey wimey.

Howz 'bout: "Timey wimey wormsies?"

 

[Jadeb]

Unless she had Captain Braxton or Annorax doing the temporal incursion calculations to see the impact of changing the timeline, Burnham might grow up to have a totally different childhood, and in turn a totally different adulthood -- one that would only through unlikely coincidental circumstances lead her to having a Starfleet career anything like what we've seen -- if having a Starfleet career at all.

Burnham's mom would be changing a future that was, from her perspective, yet unwritten. What does she care if Burnham becomes a Starfleet officer, as long as her family is safe? I imagine Burnham's mom and dad would much rather see Burnham have a happy childhood with them than what seems like a fairly miserable one on Vulcan.

If I were Burnham's mom and watched season 1 of Discovery, I'd be like, "Yup, gotta fix that."

 

[Yistaan]

To be fair:

- The method of time travel in STIV was very specific, and Spock wasn't even sure he could calculate the return variables properly; and if they failed Earth itself was lost.

- Also, remember that in TOS S1 "City on the Edge of Forever"; the Guardian sent Kirk and Spock back and stated they would return ONLY if they were successful. neither Kirk nor Spock could just call to the Guardian and say: "Three to return". The only way they'd be returned was if they were successful in restoring their timeline.

And yet in Assignment Earth the Enterprise just casually goes back in time for historical research purposes. Which indicates time travel had probably been in use by the Federation for some time.

I know Spock acts like it's a big deal they can now "go anywhere, anytime" in the time travel of 'Naked Time' and 'Tomorrow is Yesterday'. But I took that more to mean that conventional warp ships without a time crystal were now suddenly capable of time travel (instead of tech actually designed for it via time crystal, like the suit), not that time travel didn't exist before.

A hypothetical example would be the way we would marvel at how a car could suddenly be modified for air travel and space flight, but we wouldn't find air/space flight anything new in itself.

"Temporal worms" sounds even coolier.

Howz 'bout: "Timey wimey wormsies?"

Wibbly wobbly timey wimey worms are the next big villain for Season 3. They'll enter a crew member's ear in a graphic sequence that's a homage to yet another famous Trek movie, then mind control them to travel through time committing misdeeds.

 

[Gonzo]

Just seen the episode and it's another solid 8/10.

Won't go through it all as I am sure it been covered already, I haven't been through the thread yet but I have responded to a couple of quotes sent my way.

Just a couple of points really.

I wasnt convinced about Michael being the Red Angel when it was shown as it was too easy, made even more so when they were trying to trap a future version of Michael who was in the room with them while they decided on how to do it, probably not a good way to take someone by surprise really.

What is Leland's status now, is he dead, assimilated or what, was that what remains of the compromised Control or something else entirely.

Not surprised that the remnants of Control wouldn't interfere with the plan as it would also suit it's plan of stopping the time incursions, netting the Red Angel may not be the smartest move to be honest as Control now knows who the Red Angel is as well.

Does Georgiou get all of his stuff if he is dead and if so could we be approaching the launch point for the new S31 series.

Nice to see they didnt drag the Red Angel plot out for too long, that's the advantage of having shorter seasons as it forces tighter scripts and less waste, with that being said a couple of episodes this season would have benefitted from a bit more run time but that could just be down to editing.

Will go through thread shortly.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

Burnham's mom would be changing a future that was, from her perspective, yet unwritten. What does she care if Burnham becomes a Starfleet officer, as long as her family is safe? I imagine Burnham's mom and dad would much rather see Burnham have a happy childhood with them than what seems like a fairly miserable one on Vulcan.

Yeah, That's a good in-universe take on how the characters might think and feel, but I'm looking at it from the point of view of how it affects all of the events this TV show has presented so far. If they go that route, I'll still be able to suspend my disbelief that Burnham ends up on the Discovery with the events we've seen since SEason1 episode 1 still in tact, but I rather not have to suspend my disbelief in that case.

Then again, the mirror universe does this all the time -- having MU people with totally different pasts than their PU counterparts all wind up together on the same ship. In some respects I'm bothered by that as well, but I just tell myself its just a show and i should really just relax.

[And I didn't mean for my post above to be a direct response to your post. It started that way, but my post wandered beyond addressing your post. . I edited it to remove your quote].

 

[lawman]

I wasn't originally going to comment and normally i don't. But my finger got tired from having to scroll past it.

Scrolling past one long post is more exhausting than scrolling past 10 short ones?

Anyway, netiquette tip: "TL;DR" is something authors get to say about their own writing, usually by way of introducing a short summary. It's self-effacing. Kind of the digital version of "I'm worried these pants make me look fat." Saying it about someone else's post (or pants) is just rude.

I tell you to pay attention because it's important to not make errors defending your case, but you obviously don't want to, considering how much you get wrong and use in your defense anyways.

And you accuse me of being offensive? Seriously, why are you so consistently incapable of discussing differing opinions in a way that's civil and respectful to the people expressing them?

At first I thought the time logic was bad but it occurred to me that, whether Michael knows about the plan or not, the fact remains that she would still have to protect her past self to ensure her future existence.

I don't think that holds together. The only way she'd know about the danger was if she'd experienced it in her own past... and if that were the case, she'd also know the crew was standing by to rescue her if the RA didn't show up. Ergo: no need to show up.

I enjoyed many aspects of the episode (the memorial, the Spock/Burnham calling each other out stuff, Culber's dialogue, Lt Nelson or whatever her name is introduction moment, Tilly as always) but the plot honestly made me sigh. And Georgiou is just a weird character they would do well to be shot of. They're trying to play her like, say, Spike on Buffy as the morally ambiguous outsider who makes cutting remarks and drives conflict, but she just comes across as awkward and strange to me. She doesn't fit in this show's world. Even Leland is preferable, I buy him as a Special Ops officer even if I don't care for s31.

Speaking of Section 31, I actually kind of like what the show's doing with Leland, and that's making me like MU Georgiou even less. They keep presenting him as a "shades of gray" character, which I could find interesting, but then they have MU Georgiou camping it up and making the whole thing feel like a cartoon.

Total agreement with both of you here. Alan Van Sprang's acting is more nuanced and Leland's character is more interesting. I don't get all the Michelle Yeoh love around these parts; she just keeps chewing on the scenery, even in scenes where it's manifestly out of place. Shame the show's treating him as just a plot obstacle for her to climb over.

I'm guessing that where this show is now going is that the entire plot is a section 31 fuck up, that somehow Project Daedalus created both Control and the Red Angel trying to stop it.

I hadn't quite thought of it that way, but you're right. The whole situation might be recursive and weirdly pointless in that sense.

The showrunners have said that Discovery is all about Michael...the unfolding story is told from her perspective, much like Picard and Georgiou will have their respective show told from their perspective.

Did people just not believe the producers and actors when they said the main character and lead was Michael?

There's a difference, though. It's the difference between a character being central to events because he or she exercises agency, and a character being central to events because of a big pile of coincidences. It's contrived, like a detective story where the perpetrator just happens to be someone the detective knew before the crime was ever committed.

the little moment with Nhan and Burnham in the corridor was nice

That was one of the moments that didn't work for me, personally. As everyone was pointing out last week, Nhan had every reason to be pissed... Michael completely neglected to check if she was even alive, and then would've let Airiam back in to kill them both if she hadn't acted. And yet, Nhan is apologizing to her, thanking her for being there, and praising her great speech? It's more of the "all about Burnham" thing, a sign that the show's writers have blinders on about their central character.

the logic of what they were trying to do didn't work for me at all. Why would Burnham-Angel appear if Culber was standing by to resuscitate her? And I didn't follow the logic at all that it had to be Burnham who was the angel, since not all of the Red Angel appearances were linked to her.

While Michael's input is valuable... you should probably not be inviting her to your "How do we trap Michael" sessions. That's like having your friend over to help plan his surprise party.

Yeah, exactly, on both counts. The plot logic of this episode was just painfully shaky. Despite the long lead time on production, the writing on some episodes of this show makes it seem like they just filmed rough drafts, and hoped that if they keep events moving quickly enough viewers won't notice the parts that didn't get sufficiently thought through.

We're supposed to see these characters as heroic problem-solvers, after all. When the viewers can see big holes in their plans that the characters somehow don't think of — and then the plans somehow work out anyway, Just Because — that's writing that could've used another round of revision to fine-tune the details.

of course, we had to wait until the very last second for the Red Angel to show up, like she was late for a bus instead of a time traveler who could appear at any point.

Because a last-minute rescue mean Drama, right? Even when it's forced and nonsensical.

(To be fair, lots of good shows use this kind of trope. Even Game of Thrones does it entirely too often. That doesn't mean it's any less of a trope, though, or any less annoying...)

I'm skeptical of the Federation having the capacity for time travel decades before TOS. Time travel in Trek isn't my cup of tea in general, and a suit that can let a person appear anywhere in time and space makes the spore drive look like nothing.

Hear, hear. As noted above, some of the story elements here really seem like they could've benefited from further consideration in the writers' room.

It speaks to the mess Discovery has made of the Klingons that I have no idea if these Klingons would actually do such a thing. I guess the TOS Klingons would, so whatever. But it does seem like both the Klingons and Section 31 should be better drawn at this point.

Sadly correct on both counts. It seems like both are just as evil and ruthless, or just as noble and trustworthy, as the story of the week requires, consistency be damned.

My comments were a reaction to you being surprised by her "rage." I was not surprised. While we as outsiders can sort through it rationally, that was her initial gut response right there.

For a character raised on Vulcan and trained in emotional control, Burnham sure seems to succumb to a lot of gut responses. I guess this one wasn't as bad as last season's decision to side with and rescue a genocidal megalomaniac because "mommy issues," though.

Bottom line: No, I didn't find her punching out of Leland either immature or out of character for Burnham.

On reflection, I have to agree with the latter part of that. (And indeed, I don't think I said otherwise.) I still maintain it was immature behavior... but given how emotionally impulsive Burnham's been shown to be, time and again, it wasn't out of character for her.

I couldn't help but think that Culber was upset by the massive funeral they gave Airiam. Did he get one that large? Not onscreen he didn't.

To give credit where due, I think one of the reasons the camera lingered on him (and others) for reaction shots was precisely to imply this kind of thought, and make the whole funeral scene more morally complicated rather than just mawkish.

Of course, a lot of what the show's doing with him now is basically an attempt to balance out the short shrift his character got last season. It's unavoidably meta; the recurring subtext is "we fucked over this character before, but we're trying to do better now."

The scene between Culber and Cornwell was nice, but she's a Vice Admiral, probably *very* busy in the aftermath of Control's "destruction", so it feels more along the lines of "we couldn't afford a therapist character". Assuming this limitation, I would've penned it so Cornwell is the one seeking out Culber (and maybe secretly assessing him on his mental fitness). Maybe we can put that scene earlier and have Cornwell reinstate Culber as a doctor temporarily.

Ooh, clever thinking! It all would've worked much better that way.

(So, yet again, an instance of where the episode would've benefited from another round of script doctoring.)

Also, apparently Control (with Leland's voice) was okay with ordering Tyler to blast away the micro-wormhole, which is supposedly something Control wouldn't want. So Control's either still maintaining his cover, or our heroes are mistaken on Control's motives or mission.

I take it as the former. Control is an immortal AI; it has no life in the future to get back to, and presumably would be perfectly happy to take over the galaxy a few centuries earlier.

[SMG] is Michael and I always feel what she's feeling.

Huh. Very much an agree-to-disagree thing, I guess. I don't think SMG's acting is as awful as some people do, but still... I almost never feel what she's feeling. Time and again, her big emotional moments feel forced and artificial to me.

Georgiou: I'm really gonna need them to reveal eventually that she wasn't the one that actually bombed her Klingons and she's just taking credit, because I can't stop being on board her redemption arc. I think a lot of us saw the sparks of Captain Georgiou during her one-on-ones with Michael... It was motherly. I loved it.

Whereas I hated it, and completely cannot get on board her redemption arc. At all.

If you had asked me sometime back how would I feel about a Pike series with Spock and Number, well, I'd have been ambivalent. Now though I'd be enthused by the possibilities because the actors in the roles are the bee's knees in my book.

Same here! It would be a treat.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It seems like Discovery is all about Michael. The Klingon War was about her. And now we learn that all the major plot points of Season 2 from Section 31 to the Red Angel was also connected to her as well. Isn't she special?

It's like she's the lead character or something.

 

[Noname Given]

And yet in Assignment Earth the Enterprise just casually goes back in time for historical research purposes. Which indicates time travel had probably been in use by the Federation for some time.

I know Spock acts like it's a big deal they can now "go anywhere, anytime" in the time travel of 'Naked Time' and 'Tomorrow is Yesterday'. But I took that more to mean that conventional warp ships without a time crystal were now suddenly capable of time travel (instead of tech actually designed for it via time crystal, like the suit), not that time travel didn't exist before.

A hypothetical example would be the way we would marvel at how a car could suddenly be modified for air travel and space flight, but we wouldn't find air/space flight anything new in itself.

Wibbly wobbly timey wimey worms are the next big villain for Season 3. They'll enter a crew member's ear in a graphic sequence that's a homage to yet another famous Trek movie, then mind control them to travel through time committing misdeeds.

^^^^
I kind of consider TOS S2 - "Assignment Earth" to be an apocryphal outlier; muck like Pike's line (used in BOTH TOS - "The Cage" and TOS "The Menagerie" of:

PIKE: "Our destination is the Talos star group. our Time Warp, Factor 7."

 

[DaveyNY]

Oh someone mentioned Spock's booty in his spacesuit. Let's go to the screencap.

Wowzers!

That's one Brass Ass!

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

Absolutely loved the bit where Lt. Nilsson took Airiam's station. Good episode, I might have been a bit harsh when I only clicked 7, but I think I'll stick with that.

 

[eschaton]

Burnham's mom would be changing a future that was, from her perspective, yet unwritten. What does she care if Burnham becomes a Starfleet officer, as long as her family is safe? I imagine Burnham's mom and dad would much rather see Burnham have a happy childhood with them than what seems like a fairly miserable one on Vulcan.

Yeah, but there's also the entire fate of the galaxy to take into account here. If Burnham's mom changes history so that Michael grows up with her, it might also mean that she both "forgets" all knowledge of the future apocalypse and never successfully completes Project Daedalus.

She could just go back in time and somehow kill Control I suppose. Or maybe the Future Suit itself is what allows for the apocalypse, and just preventing it from existing is enough to neuter Control. But unless she can somehow read the future before making changes, she'd basically be disarming/killing herself in the hope of setting things right.

 

[DaveyNY]

Wibbly wobbly, timey wimey.

Wibbly-Wobbly-Timey-Wormey

 

[Yistaan]

^^^^
I kind of consider TOS S2 - "Assignment Earth" to be an apocryphal outlier; muck like Pike's line (used in BOTH TOS - "The Cage" and TOS "The Menagerie" of:
PIKE: "Our destination is the Talos star group. our Time Warp, Factor 7."

What's wrong with that line? Technically warp drive is a time warp since it circumvents the laws of relativity and time dilation. Just because he calls it a time warp and no one else does doesn't make it technically wrong.

This would be like saying that someone calling C-3PO in Star Wars an android is noncanon. He is an android, it's just that everyone else in Star Wars uses the term droids.

All of Trek filmed media are still canon, short of an official statement declaring otherwise (the way Star Wars came out with a statement declaring all of the novels, comics, and games non-canon in 2014 after the Disney buyout).

 

[lawman]

And yet in Assignment Earth the Enterprise just casually goes back in time for historical research purposes. Which indicates time travel had probably been in use by the Federation for some time.

I know Spock acts like it's a big deal they can now "go anywhere, anytime" in the time travel of 'Naked Time' and 'Tomorrow is Yesterday'. But I took that more to mean that conventional warp ships without a time crystal were now suddenly capable of time travel (instead of tech actually designed for it via time crystal, like the suit), not that time travel didn't exist before.

I always took it as "time travel didn't exist before" — at least, not within the capabilities of Federation science.

I'm fond of the time-travel context and parameters painstakingly worked out by CLB in DTI:Forgotten History, which definitely went with that interpretation, and managed to integrate just about every instance of time travel in TOS canon. The approach taken in this episode really seems to disregard all of that.

 

[Yistaan]

Wibbly-Wobbly-Timey-Wormey

L'Rell: You didn't expect to find me. Allow me introduce you to wibbly wobbly timey wimey worms. ...What do you think? They enter through the ears ...and wrap themselves around the cerebral cortex. This has the effect of rendering the victim extremely susceptible to suggestion. Later, ...they grow, ...follows madness. ...And time travel.

Tyler: L'Rell, listen to me!

L'Rell: These are pets, of course. Not quite domesticated.

Tyler: L'Rell! We were only doing our duty! No! No! (screams of pain)

L'Rell: Now, travel back in time and kill Michael Burnham.

I always took it as "time travel didn't exist before" — at least, not within the capabilities of Federation science.

I'm fond of the time-travel context and parameters painstakingly worked out by CLB in DTI:Forgotten History, which definitely goes with that interpretation, and managed to integrate just about every instance of time travel in TOS canon. The approach taken in this episode really seems to disregard all of that.

Time travel, like cloaking tech, is constantly being retconned in Star Trek. We have to assume that in Balance of Power, the Enterprise is marveling at yet another new cloaking tech, not cloaking tech in general.

 

[Romulan_spy]

It's like she's the lead character or something.

Yes, I've been told.