Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x10 - "The Red Angel"

[David]

She’s no emissary to the prophets.

It seems like Discovery is all about Michael. The Klingon War was about her. And now we learn that all the major plot points of Season 2 from Section 31 to the Red Angel was also connected to her as well. Isn't she special?

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Yes, my good man, Time Crystals are actual science. And sure they are used about as realistically as dilithium crystals, warp drives, shields, transporters etc. that Star Trek uses, but yes, they are based on actual science.

The name was borrowed from real science, but that's about it. Kinda like the wormhole from TMP. SINO -- science in name only.

 

[NeoStar9]

It seems like Discovery is all about Michael. The Klingon War was about her. And now we learn that all the major plot points of Season 2 from Section 31 to the Red Angel was also connected to her as well. Isn't she special?

This keeps coming up every now and then so I have to ask. Did people just not believe the producers and actors when they said the main character and lead was Michael? Or thought that was suddenly going to change in season 2?

 

[137th Gebirg]

Interesting the computer screens used in the episode. Some LCARS like elbow designs, a few TOS colours.

Not to mention everything in there has clipped corners, like it was taken from the NuBSG CIC. The monitors, the console, the wall struts...everything!

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Not to mention everything in there has clipped corners, like it was taken from the NuBSG CIC. The monitors, the console, the wall struts...everything!

Maybe they don't like corners Cornerists

 

[Gonzo]

Let me spoil it for you. It’s Batman.

It’s always Batman.

I'm Batman.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Maybe they don't like corners Cornerists

Cornerist extremists? CORNER PRIME!

 

[Jadeb]

I had a hard time getting into this one. The "sacrifice" of Burnham was pretty well presented -- good job, SMG -- but the outcome was inevitable, and, of course, we had to wait until the very last second for the Red Angel to show up, like she was late for a bus instead of a time traveler who could appear at any point. Would have saved everyone some trouble if she popped in earlier and erased the neuro print before Tilly found it, wouldn't it?

The reveal at the end was one of Discovery's better twists, I thought, though the backstory seemed awfully easy and convenient -- "and then Burnham's mom built a time machine." OK, then. I'll have to see what they do with this, but I'm skeptical of the Federation having the capacity for time travel decades before TOS. Time travel in Trek isn't my cup of tea in general, and a suit that can let a person appear anywhere in time and space makes the spore drive look like nothing.

I wasn't sure what to make of the notion that the Klingons would use the time machine to destroy their enemies while they couldn't fight back. We're a long way from the honor 'n' glory Klingons of TNG, aren't we? It speaks to the mess Discovery has made of the Klingons that I have no idea if these Klingons would actually do such a thing. I guess the TOS Klingons would, so whatever. But it does seem like both the Klingons and Section 31 should be better drawn at this point.

Speaking of Section 31, I actually kind of like what the show's doing with Leland, and that's making me like MU Georgiou even less. They keep presenting him as a "shades of gray" character, which I could find interesting, but then they have MU Georgiou camping it up and making the whole thing feel like a cartoon. I do agree with the notion that it feels like she's wandered in from another show. Trying to humanize her would be better than continuing with the eeeevil characterization, I guess, but even that seems like a long walk for a short drink of water. I get that she's a fun character and everyone loves Michelle Yeoh, but sometimes you have to kill your darlings.

Final random thought: After seeing that Ariam's replacement is played by the old Ariam, I wondered if there was truth to the story about the actress being allergic to the makeup or if that was just cover because they wanted to keep her on the show.

 

[eschaton]

I had a hard time getting into this one. The "sacrifice" of Burnham was pretty well presented -- good job, SMG -- but the outcome was inevitable, and, of course, we had to wait until the very last second for the Red Angel to show up, like she was late for a bus instead of a time traveler who could appear at any point. Would have saved everyone some trouble if she popped in earlier and erased the neuro print before Tilly found it, wouldn't it?

The reveal at the end was one of Discovery's better twists, I thought, though the backstory seemed awfully easy and convenient -- "and then Burnham's mom built a time machine." OK, then. I'll have to see what they do with this, but I'm skeptical of the Federation having the capacity for time travel decades before TOS. Time travel in Trek isn't my cup of tea in general, and a suit that can let a person appear anywhere in time and space makes the spore drive look like nothing.

I wasn't sure what to make of the notion that the Klingons would use the time machine to destroy their enemies while they couldn't fight back. We're a long way from the honor 'n' glory Klingons of TNG, aren't we? It speaks to the mess Discovery has made of the Klingons that I have no idea if these Klingons would actually do such a thing. I guess the TOS Klingons would, so whatever. But it does seem like both the Klingons and Section 31 should be better drawn at this point.

Speaking of Section 31, I actually kind of like what the show's doing with Leland, and that's making me like MU Georgiou even less. They keep presenting him as a "shades of gray" character, which I could find interesting, but then they have MU Georgiou camping it up and making the whole thing feel like a cartoon. I do agree with the notion that it feels like she's wandered in from another show. I like that they seem to be trying to humanize her, but that seems like a long walk for a short drink of water.

Final random thought: After seeing that Ariam's replacement is played by the old Ariam, I wondered if there was truth to the story about the actress being allergic to the makeup or if that was just cover because they wanted to keep her on the show.

Structurally speaking, this episode was a friggin mess. I mean, it was basically:

1. A nice, though a bit overdone - funeral for Airiam.
2. A gigaton of exposition regarding the Red Angel which was partially a red herring.
3. A bunch of conversations between two characters in the mid portion of the show - some of which worked, and some of which didn't. But about the midpoint I was getting bored, because the show had overloaded on character moments and seemingly had no plot at all.
4. 15 minutes before the end of the show, they realized something actually had to happen this week.

 

[Jadeb]

Structurally speaking, this episode was a friggin mess. I mean, it was basically:

1. A nice, though a bit overdone - funeral for Airiam.
2. A gigaton of exposition regarding the Red Angel which was partially a red herring.
3. A bunch of conversations between two characters in the mid portion of the show - some of which worked, and some of which didn't. But about the midpoint I was getting bored, because the show had overloaded on character moments and seemingly had no plot at all.
4. 15 minutes before the end of the show, they realized something actually had to happen this week.

Yeah, agree. But as far as sins go, I'll take "too many character moments" over what we got last season. I'm glad they're making them a priority this year.

 

[Mr Awe]

I had the same issue. That was the point I was like "man, this episode is a bunch of melodramatic crap." Though it did right itself later on.

I mean, in a broad sense I suppose you could say Leland was "responsible" for their deaths. But it was clearly a mistake, and everyone involved worked for Section 31. It's like if your parents are in the military, are killed in combat, and you eventually meet their commanding officer who planned the mission 20 years later. Yes, if it wasn't for that call, they would be alive. But to err is human. And it happened when she was a small child. And Leland was obviously wracked by guilt about it for decades. I can understand being confused, saddened - but filled with rage as if he was the murderer?

Was it a rational action? No. An emotional one? You bet!

And, it wasn't just the rage of her parents being killed on his watch. It was the years and years of guilt that she went through unnecessarily. I think she was particularly PO'd about that! I also think there's more emotion attached to it because it happened while she was a child. As an adult, it would be extraordinarily painful, but you'd be able to process a little more rationally. Hopefully.

It rang true for me. YMMV.

 

[eschaton]

Was it a rational action? No. An emotional one? You bet!

And, it wasn't just the rage of her parents being killed on his watch. It was the years and years of guilt that she went through unnecessarily. I think she was particularly PO'd about that! I also think there's more emotion attached to it because it happened while she was a child. As an adult, it would be extraordinarily painful, but you'd be able to process a little more rationally. Hopefully.

It rang true for me. YMMV.

Maybe. As I said, my main issue was the ambiguity in how the shot was framed. I feel like Leland was basically in the right in this, and Burnham was in the wrong. But I was left wondering if that was the intent of the script, or just my own interpretation of the scene.

 

[Mr Awe]

Structurally speaking, this episode was a friggin mess. I mean, it was basically:

1. A nice, though a bit overdone - funeral for Airiam.
2. A gigaton of exposition regarding the Red Angel which was partially a red herring.
3. A bunch of conversations between two characters in the mid portion of the show - some of which worked, and some of which didn't. But about the midpoint I was getting bored, because the show had overloaded on character moments and seemingly had no plot at all.
4. 15 minutes before the end of the show, they realized something actually had to happen this week.

Overall, I enjoyed the episode. It was good but not great. Agree with your comments above. In fact, I'm wondering if they took the last 15 minutes and expanded it to a full episode to create the longer season. Basically just put random stuff in it to fill out an episode rather than incorporating the 15 minutes into another episode.

I particularly thought the conversation between Cornwell and Culber fell flat. She really didn't say much other than to make a road you have to walk it. And, Culber mysteriously seemed to really value it. D'oh. Talk about the bleeding obvious. There just wasn't much substance there but Culber acted like it change his (new) life.

 

[oberth]

I'm just curious at this as to why all the numbers are Roman Numerals except the number four...
IIII instead of IV ????

there is no clear 'syntax' to roman numerals - you could use whatever you needed to get to a result. I-II-III-IV-V-VI-VII-VIII-IX-X is a rather modern convention

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

The name was borrowed from real science, but that's about it. Kinda like the wormhole from TMP. SINO -- science in name only.

Or Tachyons -- a TNG/VOY favorite, also used by DSC.

Tachyons aren't really even a scientific name, per se, because they are only hypothetical and may not exist at all. And the term is more of a place-holder if anything, since its current definition describes more of a general and hypothetical characteristic of particles (i.e., particles that can move faster than light) rather than describing a specific class of particle.

So chalk "Time Crystal" up to the similar use of "Tachyons" in DSC, TNG, and VOY.

 

[Jadeb]

Maybe. As I said, my main issue was the ambiguity in how the shot was framed. I feel like Leland was basically in the right in this, and Burnham was in the wrong. But I was left wondering if that was the intent of the script, or just my own interpretation of the scene.

I think they were both carrying intense guilt that was not really reflective of their responsibility for what happened. Leland's came bubbling out as confession and Burnham's as a punch to the face. In this case, I liked the ambiguity of it.

 

[Mr Awe]

Maybe. As I said, my main issue was the ambiguity in how the shot was framed. I feel like Leland was basically in the right in this, and Burnham was in the wrong. But I was left wondering if that was the intent of the script, or just my own interpretation of the scene.

From a rational standpoint, I'd at least say that Leland wasn't in the wrong. He did say he was careless and didn't protect her parents enough. So, you might say his actions weren't "correct." But a tribunal probably wouldn't find them as being negligent either. It was a dangerous situation that involved a top secret project and actions by a hostile power. Deaths are likely even with the best of leadership. And he was young.

My comments were a reaction to you being surprised by her "rage." I was not surprised. While we as outsiders can sort through it rationally, that was her initial gut response right there. Magnified by her being a child and the decades of guilt. Her emotions flashed out of control for moments. That seems understandable to me. If we imagine a tribunal for her striking an officer, she's probably not facing punishment (as long as nothing else happens after that). It was very much in the heat of a moment she wasn't prepared for.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

Tilly (at the end of the awkward Georgiou/Stamets/Culber scene):

"What just happened?" ​

My new favorite Tilly line!

 

[DaveyNY]

It seems like Discovery is all about Michael. The Klingon War was about her. And now we learn that all the major plot points of Season 2 from Section 31 to the Red Angel was also connected to her as well. Isn't she special?

Ummm... She is the STAR of the show.

So by your estimation, Archer, Kirk, Picard, Sisko AND Janeway are also SPECIAL.

You do realize that TV shows have pretty much always worked this way, right?

 

[Mr Awe]

I'm guessing that where this show is now going is that the entire plot is a section 31 fuck up, that somehow Project Daedalus created both Control and the Red Angel trying to stop it.
Not really the deep look at rationality and faith that I was hoping for, but at least it's better than ZOMG MIRROR UNIVERSE. So, progress.

I hope not, but I wondered the same thing. Seems kind of a waste to spend a season cleaning up a self-created mess. But, it seems to be heading this way. At least it (probably) shows Starfleet shifting away from using the ends to justify the means/grey area/S31 approach that probably was required for the Klingon war to the moral high ground approach we see later on. It's a recognition that the S31 approach is problematic.

Yet, we're getting a S31 series so not quite sure how that fits in with that!