Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x10 - "The Red Angel"

[Jackson_Roykirk]

If he puts on a pirate patch and hides it, he could say that it's just the result of Michael's punches to his face.
(grasping desperately at a wet paper straw here)

Harrr!

And to be clear, I'm with you that Leland isn't necessarily dead. I just wonder how much secretiveness control can have, and how much secret control it could have over Leland using a chip without people noticing things such as Leland's eye (eyes?) injury.

 

[Jadeb]

Why didn't this occur to me?

Think of all the tips she could have been providing:

"That mutiny thing? Bad idea."
"Sweetie, there's something you should know about the fellow you're dating."
"Maybe tell Culber to call in sick Tuesday."

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Oh someone mentioned Spock's booty in his spacesuit. Let's go to the screencap.

Wowzers!

 

[IMC Headquarters]

Anyone else see the crewman in wheelchair attending funeral? Some might see it as foreshadowing, but I just applaud that there are disabled people serving aboard.

 

[Jadeb]

Better not. If the show uses time travel shenanigans to revise Michael's backstory, I'll be pissed. It'll stink of the old Reset Button, which spurred a thousand Trekkie rants back in the day.

Besides, as pointed out, Spock has a tendency to withhold information until it is "relevant."

They're going to have to dream up some reason why it isn't (or hasn't already been) used to prevent Burnham's parents deaths, either by Burham's mom or future Burnham, and also why it can never be used again. Like the spore drive, it comes with a mandatory reset button. The show really loves this sort of thing.

 

[IMC Headquarters]

The Bajorans would say Leland has the Orbs of the Profitless...

 

[Doc Mugatu]

I gave this one a "7."

In a nutshell: It was a good episode. Too many therapy sessions for my taste, but otherwise a strong installment. Funny, after watching the Flash (S3) deal with a future version of himself, I kept wondering why are they discussing their plans in front of Michael? I mean, under "Dirk Einstein's Unified Theory of TV Show Physics & Time Travel," once she was informed then her future self would know, right? Also kind of disappointed the Red Angel suit wasn't peppered with sponsorship patches like a NASCAR racing suit. Anyway, so R.A. turns out to be Michael's mother. Okay. Felt a bit underwhelmed by that revelation - not saying I'm justified in feeling that way, only that is my honest first response.

On the upside, I am really liking Ethan Peck's turn as Mr. Spock (much superior to Zachery Quinto's "interpretation"). If you had asked me sometime back how would I feel about a Pike series with Spock and Number, well, I'd have been ambivalent. Now though I'd be enthused by the possibilities because the actors in the roles are the bee's knees in my book.

 

[Noname Given]

It seems like Discovery is all about Michael. The Klingon War was about her. And now we learn that all the major plot points of Season 2 from Section 31 to the Red Angel was also connected to her as well. Isn't she special?

In TOS, Spock:
- Is related to the LEADER of Vulcan (who is the only person to turn down a seat on the Federation Council) -- See TOS S2 "Amok Time:

- Is the son of the Vulcan Federation Ambassador to Earth.

And from TOS S2 "Amok Time":

T'PRING: You have become much known among our people, Spock. Almost a legend. And as the years went by, I came to know that I did not want to be the consort of a legend...

So, it SEEMS to run in the Family (and I say that given that Michael Burnham WAS raised in said family for 20 years.)

 

[Noname Given]

I had the same issue. That was the point I was like "man, this episode is a bunch of melodramatic crap." Though it did right itself later on.

I mean, in a broad sense I suppose you could say Leland was "responsible" for their deaths. But it was clearly a mistake, and everyone involved worked for Section 31. It's like if your parents are in the military, are killed in combat, and you eventually meet their commanding officer who planned the mission 20 years later. Yes, if it wasn't for that call, they would be alive. But to err is human. And it happened when she was a small child. And Leland was obviously wracked by guilt about it for decades. I can understand being confused, saddened - but filled with rage as if he was the murderer?

The issue here was - Burnham's parents NEVER TOLD her they were part of Section 31 (and I'm not saying they should have, because it was classified, she was a child; and I doubt the parents expected what ultimately happened). All Burnham knew was that they were both Federation scientists - and she tries to reinforce that belief to herself when Leland says: "Your parents were both working on Time Travel tech for Section 31...".

But my point is that Burnham NEVER KNEW, so she was mentally unprepared. She was probably also upset that when she came of age and had even joined Starfleet, no one from Starfleet Intelligence/Section 31 ever approached her and tried to tell her some version of what actually happened to give her some form of closure or help her resolve her own guilt that she felt because for 20+ years she believed her parent's deaths were all her fault.

 

[Yistaan]

They're going to have to dream up some reason why it isn't (or hasn't already been) used to prevent Burnham's parents deaths, either by Burham's mom or future Burnham, and also why it can never be used again. Like the spore drive, it comes with a mandatory reset button. The show really loves this sort of thing.

Hasn't this been an issue as long as time travel has existed in Star Trek though? The question of why Trek characters don't just time travel to prevent this incident?

Kirk is mourning David's death in Star Trek 3, then using time travel to save 2 whales in the next movie without thinking of using it to save his son.

Nobody in 'City on the Edge of Forever' think that kidnapping Edith Keeler to the 23rd century and faking her death would preserve their timeline. And faking someone's death should be easy for people with futuristic knowledge like Kirk and Spock.

We know from Assignment Earth the Federation was already using time travel for historical research. No indication why people don't just use it for other things.

 

[Jadeb]

Hasn't this been an issue as long as time travel has existed in Star Trek though? The question of why Trek characters don't just time travel to prevent this incident?

Kirk is mourning David's death in Star Trek 3, then using time travel to save 2 whales in the next movie without thinking of using it to save his son.

Nobody in 'City on the Edge of Forever' think that kidnapping Edith Keeler to the 23rd century and faking her death would preserve their timeline. And faking someone's death should be easy for people with futuristic knowledge like Kirk and Spock.

We know from Assignment Earth the Federation was already using time travel for historical research. No indication why people don't just use it for other things.

Good call on Trek III and IV. I had never considered that. But I do think this super suit adds a massive convenience factor. Kirk had to risk the lives of his crew to save those whales, and he needed a starship to do it. Now Burnham could just suit up and be like, "Hey Mom, the Klingons are coming." How could a person resist that?

 

[Ovation]

We're a long way from the honor 'n' glory Klingons of TNG, aren't we?

The further away the show stays from that, the better.

I can totally buy the Klingons who invent the "mind-sifter" pursuing time travel as a way to get an upper hand over enemies--so Klingons from this era. While I have not cared at all about the visual changes to the Klingons, I have always preferred the TOS version in terms of behaviour and general attitude vs the "biker gang/Vikings" we got in TNG-era.

 

[Seven of Five]

10 for me though I probably got over excited at the twist at the end. At the start when they said Burnham was the Red Angel, I spent the rest of the episode thinking I hope not, as it would he a bit too straightforward. I was very taken by the cool twist that her mother was not only still alive, but was also Red Angel.

Loved it anyway. Airiam's funeral was very touching - Saru singing was a sweet moment.

The character interactions all felt very real this week. I particularly enjoyed Cornwell and Georgiou speaking to Culber about how he feels, and Stamets. Spock and Burnham was a nice talk too.

Even Tyler/Burnham didn't make me throw up this week!

 

[Jadeb]

I have always preferred the TOS version in terms of behaviour and general attitude vs the "biker gang/Vikings" we got in TNG-era.

I do too. But I'd like to know what the Klingons' deal is in Discovery. We had a whole war and I don't have a sense of them.

 

[eschaton]

Thinking about it logically, it does seem like Mama Burnham has - so far, avoided any temporal paradoxes.

Basically, if we presume that the "future suit" has no shielding from temporal effects, than if she went back in time to prior to her own existence - or even the final development of the suit - she would either butterfly away herself or at least her ability to use the suit/knowledge of the future. This is likely why she can't "save herself" - and her husband - because if she did so, she might never go into the future and find out what Control is up to.

The one exception is the New Eden colony. That said, it seems she (if it was indeed her, and not someone else in the suit) chose well, insofar as it was a group of people who were about to be totally wiped out, and she settled them all so far away from the Federation there was no chance of substantively altering local history, and undoing her own existence.

 

[Alan Roi]

The name was borrowed from real science, but that's about it. Kinda like the wormhole from TMP. SINO -- science in name only.

So, Star Trek as we've always known it.

PS. and not just the name, as Sar Trek often does. Read the entries on time crystals. It talks about "repeating time".

 

[Yistaan]

Good call on Trek III and IV. I had never considered that. But I do think this super suit adds a massive convenience factor. Kirk had to risk the lives of his crew to save those whales, and he needed a starship to do it. Now Burnham could just suit up and be like, "Hey Mom, the Klingons are coming." How could a person resist that?

We have the Bajoran orb of time for the convenience factor too already (and it's possible this predates Discovery). While this orb is rare, so is a time crystal which is needed to power the suit. Maybe the time orb and time crystals are made of the same material?

 

[Romulan_spy]

In TOS, Spock:
- Is related to the LEADER of Vulcan (who is the only person to turn down a seat on the Federation Council) -- See TOS S2 "Amok Time:

- Is the son of the Vulcan Federation Ambassador to Earth.

And from TOS S2 "Amok Time":


So, it SEEMS to run in the Family (and I say that given that Michael Burnham WAS raised in said family for 20 years.)

True. I don't mind that Michael has a connection to Spock or even that she might be instrumental in saving the galaxy. As others have pointed out, plenty of lead characters in Trek become legendary in saving the galaxy. That's cool! I guess it's the Section 31 connection that irks me a little bit. Why can't S31 just be its own nefarious organization without also being connected to the lead character?

 

[Alan Roi]

I'd actually argue that this episode proves it's not all about Michael - it's all about her mom.

I mean, of course Michael's mother will intervene to try and save her life. She's one of the handful of people in the universe who would do that. Thus, this is a sign that she isn't special. At least so far. She might don the suit later on in the season. The other part of this is the plan to defeat Control, which appears to be pretty much independent of Michael (so far) except for the fact that her mom discovered it when she skipped into the future.

Well, it might very well all be about Michael, just not yet fro her POV, but past tense from Control's POV.

 

[Jadeb]

We have the Bajoran orb of time for the convenience factor too already (and it's possible this predates Discovery). While this orb is rare, so is a time crystal which is needed to power the suit. Maybe the time orb and time crystals are made of the same material?

This is why I don't like time travel in Trek. It's OK as a one-off plot facilitator, like in City or last season's Magic, but it really opens up a box of worms when you think about it.