So your response is:
"As long as one of the TNG spinoffs (IE borrowed from other series) did it, it fine and original. If ST: D did it, it's derivative." <--- That seems to summarize your arguments here.
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"As long as one of the TNG spinoffs (IE borrowed from other series) did it, it fine and original. If ST: D did it, it's derivative." <--- That seems to summarize your arguments here.
Well my point is, is that if you're going to BE a Star Trek show primarily, then BE Star Trekish and do something like a Pike Enterprise show with a recast crew from The Cage. That's BEING Star Trek. Otherwise, just use Star Fleet as a backdrop and do your own TV show and quit screwing around with known Star Trekish stuff. Either works for me. It's when you combine those two things you get a mish mash of *stuff* like Discovery who can't seem to tell their own story without having to, once again, try and display how Star Trekish they are by by character dropping.
Now granted, all the series since TOS did this, all trying to different effects attempting to show how Star Trekish they were by character dropping. TNG did it by bringing Scotty forward in time, DS9 did it by going back in time to Kirk's Enterprise. Those are two good examples of how to do it right and maintain your own identity as a series. I guess we have to wait and see how Discovery's second attempt of character dropping works out. So far, I'm not sold. But I am an easy sell when it comes to Star Trek, so there's that. And I think Frain's version of Sarek is quite nice.
No.
Yes
I think it absolutely was. It was an opportunity to turn Star Trek on its collective ear: a device that gave you the multiverse. It is unfortunate that a lack of creativity combined with the Prime box they insisted they put themselves in, limited it to really no impact story wise.
Just because something isn't used to its potential, doesn't mean it was a bad idea to begin with. It just clashed with the Rogue One mindset of the production.
I am too, honestly. Or, at least I was. Something about Discovery is just off-putting to me.
I'll likely give season one another chance to hook me, sometime prior to attempting to watch season two. Who knows? Maybe it'll capture my imagination more this time?
It was terrible idea for a prequel. Also unnecessary. It is like Voyager, sure another part of galaxy, unknown region, same rubberhead aliens and same plots. Being able to visit another galaxy or universe or whatnot adds nothing of value, anything that you could place there might as well be on a star system reachable by regular warp.
It is only that when the writers want it to be that. Creative folks could've gotten a lot of mileage out of the Spore Drive. When I first heard about it, I thought we would get a meta-physical arc, something along the lines of "Where No One Has Gone Before" (TNG season 1) written large. Unfortunately, it was just a device used to advance a ho-hum plot about Klingons and the Mirror Universe.
Boldly Going where we had already been...
I don't get the reference?
Horta....from 'Devil in the Dark'.
Nope.
I spoke about TNG specifically for the most part.
When I mention other series, it’s been in terms of DSC borrowing from them also.
In terms overall, my point is that DSC borrows dar far more than any of the prior series, with the possible exception of series 4 of ENT, but I am not a fan of ENT anyway, and what I saw of that it was more trying to explain later things and wrap up bits of continuity.
DSC is the most derivative Trek. Not saying that makes it bad. But it does make describing it as particularly remarkable for its originality incorrect.
That’s my argument. And others.
And yeah, I would like to see more original stuff, but mainly I would like to see it sort itself out and get its heart in the right place, because early in that season in was just really really bad. Dead body bombs? By Starfleet? Never mind the continuity malfunctions, that’s a bloody humanity malfunction, and if it had missed the point of Star Trek any more, the show standing behind them would have got pricked. Which it did. The show was Orville. Which is also derivative of Trek. Yet somehow ended up managing more originality and heartfelt writing.
I like DSC, cannot state that enough for these discussions, I will defend it from accusations of being things it isn’t, but will also call it out for what it is, and not give praise for things it isn’t.
It isn’t original. It isn’t original within the canon of Trek. But that’s O.K. It’s possible for it to get better.
Edit: Also, when DS9 used the MU it was for its own new stories. Not a retread of TOS. When DSC did it, it pulled many of the plot beats from what DS9 had already done. Dead lover mirror duplicate? Check. Rebellion? Check. MU pretending to be Prime character...check. Prime characters disguising as MU to achieve goal? Check TOS Check DS9. Shock return of dead character with deep meaning to Prime character, who drives the pilot episode, suddenly having MU version turn up but consistently reminds that hey are not the Prime? Check.
The only new thing DSC added was ‘even the light is different here’. And we all know how well that’s going down in some corners.
The key is percentages. One hundred percent of a show with Burnham at its centre will now be derivative. More so in DSC because of everything else they did too.
When the other shows did call backs to TOS it was anniversary or event time.
When he other shows did callbacks to each other, it was a cameo or a logical progression of plot lines, sometimes even planned that way. DS9 leans most heavily, but still, only for an episode or four....Klingon trio, Wolf 359. It’s not a big thing, and there’s more, way more, that is all it’s own thing.
Again, I am gonna ignore ENT, because I simply haven’t watched it really, but I know that got silly with its call forwards, but I also know that it did some of its own stuff too.
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Do you think it was a good idea to introduce this Spore Drive in a series set in the 2250s? Before TOS.
Because amusingly the Spore Drive technology never ended up being classified in STD, everyone knew about it... even Mudd.
Good storytelling forgives a lot of sins, in my book. Unfortunately, I just didn't see what they were doing as good storytelling.
It’s all secretly a Voyager prequel. Stamets grows up to be Banjo man.
Pulaski was fine for the role she served, but if I had caught wind her being a McCoy clone before the season started, I would've had the same reservations as I do with Discovery. I at least understand the idea behind Pulaski, to give TNG a more human feel after the characters of the first season mostly came across as cold and unlikable to a degree.
Burnham and the way Discovery is structured feel like it was dictated from the top down by CBS to maximize nostalgia. YMMV.
"Hey, I came up with this new idea for a drive to use in our new Trek show! It can instantaneously take the ship to any time, any place, and any possible parallel universe."
"Cool! What do you think we should use it for?"
"How about it just makes a series of tactical jumps around to help with the war effort, ends up in the Mirror Universe, jumps nine months into the future, and is finally shelved indefinitely?"
"Well, it's better than anything I got."
I might've misunderstood BillJ's comment.
But I'm still done. Not with posting here. This is the first Star Trek series I've enjoyed in almost 20 years. I'll be damned if I let anyone ruin it for me, no matter what objections they have with the show. But I'm done with arguing over fanwank and canon. I just want to enjoy the show.
I have to do what feels right for me. And what feels right is to bow out of these debates. Not bowing out of talking about the show but talking about these particular things. We all know where we stand, it's not doing anything for me, and it takes up too much time, so it's time to move passed this.
It's been a pleasure, everyone. See you around when it comes to talking about parts of the show that aren't talking about fanwank, canon, and timelines.
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What DSC added that was new to the MU was a multi-episode deep dive into what it feels like having to pretend to fit in with absolute savages just to survive. That blew every previous MU story out of the water for me, and it was a shame when they left it behind to go do generic imperial intrigue.
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