It was TOS with the furniture rearranged and a new coat of paint.
Spock News
- Thread starter Vger23
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During TOS S1 the set dressers put a lot of TOS models (like the Type F Galileo Shuttle, and TOS style Constitution Class models with slightly different nacelles) and props in the background of briefing room /recreation area shots.
They were probably accused of ripping off style and tone in a lot of places...and TNG is heavily based on phase II (but since that never actually got made, it doesn’t really count). The Naked Now isn’t really a xerox of The Naked Time...it intentionally uses the same concept, in order to give you some quick character development for the new cast. Everything else in it is different...as you would expect, because it’s a different show. They deliberately draw attention to what similarities there are, by having someone recall reading the log for the earlier story; which does nothing more than say ‘this is Prime’ before loudly announcing ‘this is Prime’ or indeed, ‘Prime’ became a thing. Having the Oberth class there does the same job...saves them some moolha on models too. The episode says..this is the same continuity as TOS and the Movies, then carries on showing you some of the hopes and fears and tensions in the new crew. We see Wesley’s engineering skills and aspiration, Geordi’s loneliness, Tasha’s vulnerable side, Picard and Beverly’s romantic tension, Riker and Troi’s complex relationship, it’s all really there just to do that. Beyond the ‘crew gets space drunk on a virus, and the ship is in danger’ and some different but similar visual callbacks (frozen victims) in the beginning, there’s almost nothing you could say ‘oh that’s the same’. It’s not like anyone starts fencing or singing badly particularly. It doesn’t hide it’s borrrowing either, it’s right there in the title. It’s also about the only time I can think of that TNG does the rehash thing...I am ready to be corrected, but whilst we can say ‘oh x is similar to y’ I think this is the only time it actually does it (whilst still being totally different...largely because it’s an episode deliberately giving us the same set up so we can see how different the new series is.)
Everything else is just ‘same universe’, at least until Sarek turns up. And even then, they do something so genuinely different, and well done, that it’s impossible to declare it a crutch. If anything, TNG seeks to enrich the TOS series when it does these things, rather than use them to prop itself up....Unification was to help market Star Trek VI, as was Dorn appearing in the film as Worfs grandad...TNG was huge by itself by the time it went to the TOS well, and it was absolutely an explicit decision to not cleave too close to TOS and carve its own identity.
I posted upthread a look at DSC's first season episode-by-episode to see how much the show actually leaned on TOS but it's as if I might as well have typed nothing. Not disputed but hand-waved instead. Hand-waved outright I might add. Possibly because if posters looked at what I said, they're worried I might actually be right. I might actually have a point. And that they might be making over-generalizations.
I even wonder if it matters if DSC does anything completely different or completely the same to some. If it's "too different" then "It's not Star Trek! STD sucks!" If it's too the same it's "Why can't they do something new!"
DSC does have its own identity it's just that the people who don't like the series say, "I don't like the characters!" "I don't find them interesting!" "Michael Burnham isn't Spock's sister!" What about Lorca? What about Stamets? What about Tilly? What about L'Rell? What about Ash Tyler? What about T'Kuvma? What about Culber? What about Georgiou? What about Cornwell? What about anyone else?
What about the fact that the Mirror Universe story isn't the same type of story that was done in the other series?
What about the fact that the lead of the series is so unconventional? What about the fact that some people who are complaining about the series complain that it doesn't feel like Star Trek? The fact that they think it feels like something else to them means that it has an identity of its own even if it's one they don't like.
I even wonder if it matters if DSC does anything completely different or completely the same to some. If it's "too different" then "It's not Star Trek! STD sucks!" If it's too the same it's "Why can't they do something new!"
DSC does have its own identity it's just that the people who don't like the series say, "I don't like the characters!" "I don't find them interesting!" "Michael Burnham isn't Spock's sister!" What about Lorca? What about Stamets? What about Tilly? What about L'Rell? What about Ash Tyler? What about T'Kuvma? What about Culber? What about Georgiou? What about Cornwell? What about anyone else?
What about the fact that the Mirror Universe story isn't the same type of story that was done in the other series?
What about the fact that the lead of the series is so unconventional? What about the fact that some people who are complaining about the series complain that it doesn't feel like Star Trek? The fact that they think it feels like something else to them means that it has an identity of its own even if it's one they don't like.
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Actually, a problem of early TNG is that the production looks like TOS. The same cheap sets with painted walls as "sky", barely improved vfx, and generally the way of storytelling stuck up in the past (much like S1 of DIS is extremely similar to late Berman-era in production design and writing).
When TNG S1 looked significantly better, was when it was able to use the ressources of the TOS movies - having much more detailed starships (Excelsiour, Oberth), re-using that same, amazing spacedock scene. But the lack of new materials was obvious: THe one time the klingons appeared, they flew the same 100 years old D7/K'Tinga starship from TMP. (Though they cleverly addressed it in that episode, as being an old klingon ship). It's only later in the series they started to have new looking ships in that quality (The Romulan and Klingon ships of the TNG era).
What differentiated TNG right from the beginning from TOS was the characters: Right from the start, Picard (and thus the whole crew) would approach the same situations extremely different. Instead of Kirks head-first approach, the new debate-culture was right there from the beginning. The characters still needed heavy re-working though - the writing was everything else but smooth in the first season. But what made TNG great in the end, all was already existing in the early season. Just very bare and unpolished.
I hope the same is true for DIS (though that of course can only be said in retrospect). TNG S1 had vastly superiour stories than DIS S1, DIS really failed at that level, both the plots, and the overall plotting, sacrificing characters for cheap plot twists at the end of each episode.
But at the same time, IMO, DIS has enurmous potential. Their characters are good. All of them still have some problems that need fixing - Burnham is waaay too much defined by her backstory than her actual actions on the show, Saru is one of the most interesting aliens on Trek in general but is in some heavy need of focus, Tilly and Stamets need a bit more consistent arcs, and the rest of the crew are essentially blank slates that need to be filled. But this crew is a great ensemble - while each character is "good" on their own, the combination of them elevates each one. The few moments the show actually focused on the characters instead of trying to impress the audience with shock values, they completely stole the show.
What I think the show needs is to slow down a bit. Give the characters room to breath. So that when eventually shit hits the fan, we know these guys. They shouldn't fixate so much on what could be good "twist" in their storyline, but rather, what's a good challenge to test their characters. Oh, and overall more imaginative plots would be great - I'm sick of war stories and space battles in sci-fi, I can get them literally everywhere else, and superhero-movies do the bad-guy stories much better. A few high-concept stories and ideas would be nice - not trying to save the universe, but testing the characters to solve extremely difficult puzzles.
The trailer for S2 already hints at them taking some steps in the right direction. If they succeed, DIS could become a magnificent show. Or they continue to drop the ball. We shall see.
The problem is that, while each episode may have only a handfull of TOS elements, their entire season arcs - BOTH of them - are heavily reliant of previous material and basically only filling in backstories.
Nobody cares about the klingon war, since everybody knew how it ends. The only thing that could have been interesting is how that war went - and they completely dropped the ball there, by not even showing it. And the entire mirror-universe arc is essentially the same idea as the original TOS episode - main characters trapped in an evil alternate universe - just stretched out over multiple episode and filled with every cliché of dumb schlocky SF movies.
Had the main arc of the show been something new or interesting, I think these complains would have been much fewer.
Here is the thing:
- We WANT new stories, but that are set in the same Trek universe.
- The same old stories, set in a completely unrecognizable bastardization of the Trek universe
Hell, I'm so glad for the "red bursts" in the S2 trailer - even if I don't yet know if that arc will be any good - it's still a refreshingly new challenge, set in the familiar universe.
Well, let's be honest: All of them didn't got much time to shine in S1. The only real character stuff we had was all loaded on Burnham, and that was waaaaaay to reliant on Trek lore.
I like the characters. But so far, they aren't really fleshed out characters, but just bare implications of personality. If the show goes forward and becomes more of an ensemble piece, I think people will warm up with them very soon. So far, they just didn't get a chance to evolve and develop.
THe problem is that it's the same type of story we see literally EVERYWHERE ELSE: Space nazis want to take over the universe - and have to be defeated solely with pure violence. It was embarrasing.
That's the problem of working in an established IP: You have a large viewership guaranteed right from the beginning. But those have certain expectations. So far, DIS simply hasn't matched them.
I think it's great to have such an unconventional character like Burnham in the focus. But I think the show should have at least given us something familiar to ease us in as well. Something TNG knew at the time: In early S1 they focused much more on Riker and his more Kirk-like approach on things, only for the whole ensemble slowly taking over. They "eased" us in with more familiar elements in a new environment, while at the same time proudly standing by their new way of doing things. DIS seems to go the full alienating role without trying to play expectations - only to fully backtrack later and have their new generic white-man lead for S2.
I'm not sure what I think of Pike as the Captain in S2. But, effectively, it seems like people prefer generic white guy leading Discovery off into fun space adventures! When this is what they prefer I question how much "new" they (not you) actually want.
Voyager ran into new races all the time, being in the Delta Quadrant. When I think back to that series it reminds me that running into new races and new temporal anomalies doesn't guarantee it's always going to feel like something new.
Yeah. If there is one thing about the cast I would have made different, it's that I would have added a generic straight white dude right from the beginning. A William Riker / Miles O'Brian / Tom Paris / Charles Tucker - kind of guy.
Because lets be honest: Watching television is also about representation. That's why I think it's AWESOME everything becomes more inclusive - from Black Panther and Wonder Woman on the big screen to a black female Burnham leading a Trek show. It opens these genres for a much wider audience.
But the truth is also, a majority of the people actually watching Star Trek (and genre in general) are still white dudes. So - purely from a marketing standpoint - I think it should have been clever to give them a character to identify with straight from the beginning as well. He doesn't need to take center stage. And, in fact, I think having a "generic" leading man in more of a side-role actually would allow for much more interesting story possibilities than he would have if he had to conform to the "leading man"-type of role for the entire run. But from a marketing standpoint - there should have been someone like that present. And I mean not as a secret badguy like Lorca. Just as a character for identification
Voyager also kinda' ran as a continuation of TNG. I think it should have taken a bit more of a middle-ground, of trying a bit more creative new things, while not being that different from TNG like DS9 was. But in retrospect that's hairsplitting - It makes sense for a spin-off show of a very popular show to be very similar: CSI: New York is not going to be that drastically different from CSI. And they clearly were successfull with it: VOY ran relatively smooth for seven seasons, even if it never eclipsed TNG during that time.
The problem was IMO that they tried to do the same thing again with ENT. That show should have been very different right from the start - despite being set in a more familiar setting again, the time was ripe for a new way of storytelling.
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The mirror universe story has a character from the mirror universe ending up in our universe, using it to gather people who are analogues to his experience of the MU, and technology in order to return and use these things to stage a coup.
As done multiple times in DS9.
The lead of the series is unconventional?
Not really. There’s some argument there, in that Burnham is a very tight focus lead, something that yes, isn’t usual in Trek...but....
DS9 is very very tied to Sisko, he very much drives a ton of events there, right from the pilot.
I really can’t see anything else in Burnham that is particularly unconventional. In Trek Archetype terms she’s Ensign Ro and Tom Paris with a liberal dose of Spock sauce. It’s overt, I don’t even have to reach for it. If we are talking about the race and gender of the actor, then well...that’s daft. And boring. We had an African American lead in Sisko, and a female lead in Janeway. (And if we are going to look at the shows as what they really are...ensembles, then we add Kira to that list, and Kira is another dash in Burnhams mix anyway. But Kira and Nana are head and shoulders above this iteration.)
DSC is heavy with synthesis even outside of its overt TOS crutch. It particularly likes Voyager for its character archetypes, and DS9 for some of it’s plot ideas. Second Skin?
Heck if I was really really stretching it, I would wonder about the Viidians being an influence on the Ash/Story, since that gave us a separated human/Klingon hybrid, and a character wearing another characters face to better gain information. Writing that down, I am not sure it’s even a stretch.
I know we live in a post modern world, and Trek has some many many hours, so there is nothing new under the sun. And I have no problem with that. I like DSC. Took me a while to warm up but I like it. But let’s not pretend it’s some great second coming, it has very very little in the way of originality. And much of what it did have, was dumped damned fast. Landry was a new thing for Trek. Dead. The funky floating stuff and distortions during a black alert. Cool. Interesting. Gone. Black Alerts got an explanation and got mundane very very fast. Captain Georgiou? An ethnic Chinese captain with a Greek name? That could be very interesting discussing future geopolitics, something not done much with Picard....oh. Dead. Eaten for shock value. Replaced with a fun but cookie cutter evil empress, with no way to have that discussion because she’s from a different universe.
DSC has and had the right pieces, but some of the people had no idea what to do with them. Pretending it’s otherwise wont help it.
I hope Pike is gone fast. He’s a Trek history Easter egg, about to be come fanwank. He’s well cast and it gave the trailer some buzz, but nothing interests me less than a return to sixties square jawed hero captain. Even Kirk wasn’t that. I suspect most Trek fans of longstanding don’t actually give a monkeys about having a white male lead, particularly of the traditional kind, as it’s not really somethimg as prevalent in Trek as some make out. The only time we really had it, the show got cancelled.
Riker and particularly Tom Paris exemplify this, particularly in the later seasons of their respective shows. Tom is even used as the entry point in the pilot, our introduction to the ship and crew is his introduction, but he is nowhere near being the actual lead in Voyager. But he’s there, and it works. Anyone arguing Voyager is not representative is on something...it’s the most diverse crew in Trek and didn’t neglect anyone, overall.
I'm not against Pike being there, though I'll be disappointed if the only purpose he serves is to be fanwank.
Oh I am not against him being there. But the longer he is there, the more likely it will become very odd fanwank. The character is very anachronistic, even with updating him as I presume they will. So, whilst it may be fun to have him there for a bit, he needs to be sent back to enterprise fairly fast. And Disco can’t be temp captained for a whole season, because it’s gonna get revolving door pretty fast if they do that. New ship. New Crew. New Captain. It’s what works. DSC is in danger of being ‘old unused ship, new crew with old archetypes, old unused captain’ which doesn’t sound as snappy on VHS trailers. XD
Yeah, but the whole season could take place over a couple days or a week. I think the old: one TV season equals one in universe year template is gone.
Actually the same with Riker on TNG: In "Encounter at Farpoint" Picard was actively debating with Q, that's what everyone remembers about it. But the Farpoint story - and also the introduction to the ship, where all clearly a Riker story. The only outlier is DS9, where they didn't really had a white-man-leading-type guy in between their ranks, but they made a good job of making Sisko identifiable as an archetype.
I want him to stay for most of the season. But not much longer. I generally like the idea of the Discovery having multiple different Captains before they ultimately settle on Burnham. Having one secretly evil one, then a square-jawed classic one, and then maybe someone unconventional for S3 - and THEN Burnham taking command - actually makes the show interesting and unique in the Trek company. I'd like that. Has a naval-novel "rising through the ranks"-feel to it, and it also allows for us to compare different leading styles and have a clear development of show.
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Well, if the Discovery continues to have revolving door of captains and this is (among other things) way to connect story with Spock... I would say, yes,main point of Pike is massive fan-service that will be major part of Season 2.
I think the rise through the ranks happened on Shenzhou though. So it’s difficult to do now. And Saru is the fan favourite for the chair (which would actually work, has been set up, and would be something new for Trek. *warning the following joke is cynical and may offend DSC hardfans, but is a joke* which means of course it won’t happen.) and it’s about time Starflet actually promoted from within. These guys know the ship. That’s always the point in the ship shows. The ship is their home. Which is something that also needs working on in DSC. The Disco is the first ship that feels too much like a workplace. Stamets cares about his mushroom farm, but everywhere else feels like an office or business hotel. No one lives in that ship, apart from maybe Lorca. When you think of the other ships the traditional ‘she’ just rolls of the tongue. That’s not happening for me with the DSC, and that’s unusual. Even the NX had some soul and element of care from the crew, maybe the Defiant on DS9 also lacked a personality, but it wasn’t the home, and even that ship had its moments. As our main setting, the Disco is surprisingly soulless given every episode happens there basically. The Shenzhou had more going on...and that was bizarrely treated indeed.
Totally. But writers need to be aware of audience perception. 24 is always one day, but will remember it as last year, or the first years season etc. If he’s there for a season, at the end of this, it will mean fifty percent of Discovery was under him. Jellico was captain of the D for what...a couple of weeks? Riker did a few weeks as Captain in gambit, and at least two days in BoBW. Data had the Sutherland for the duration of the Klingon Civil war blockade...which was minutes on screen, but must have been longer in universe. None of which means we think of those ships as theirs. Give Pike the DSC for a season, it becomes his ship, more than enterprise ever was. That would be a mistake I think. Two, maybe three episodes, or it’s going to tip a balance.
I think a problem is that they didn't show us the ship in the beginning. All other Trek pilots have somewhat of a "ship tour" in them, where they show you all the significant places - the bridge, engine room, medical, quarters and mess hall.
DIS didn't do that. Untill quite a few episodes in, we didn't see anything of the ship other than grey halls, Burnhams workplace, her quarter, and the the bridge sometimes. Which made the ship feel very, very empty, and artificial. Like, if they would go to a new room (like sickbay), we the audience wouldn't know what it would look like. Which works for a few episodes to make the ship feel "mysterious". But after a while Burnham should feel familiar with it, but WE never did, and that's a problem.
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