Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x15 - "Will You Take My Hand?"

[Tomalak]

AH! Okay, so only Science-blue is present, then. No Command or Ops personnel that I can see. Still weird.

Could they be cadets? We only saw Tilly in a duty uniform, but that's because she was attached to Discovery. Could be the Academy training uniform.

 

[Longinus]

AH! Okay, so only Science-blue is present, then. No Command or Ops personnel that I can see. Still weird. New cadet uniforms, maybe?

Are you sure it is blue? Could be grey like the Cage jackets.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Could they be cadets? We only saw Tilly in a duty uniform, but that's because she was attached to Discovery. Could be the Academy training uniform.

That's what I'm thinking now. It's really the only other thing that makes sense, considering the absence of the other two branches.

Are you sure it is blue? Could be grey like the Cage jackets.

Could be grey. I did a random pixel sampling with an eyedropper on one of the nearest people standing up, closest to the camera and these are the average RGB color distributions:

• Red: 31
• Green: 42
• Blue: 46

The back of Burnham's tunic is definitely more blue (and darker):

• Red: 15
  
• Green: 27
  
• Blue: 41

It is slightly weighted towards blue, but yes, there is enough red and green to make it close to grey.

 

[Noname Given]

Except the Klingons were winning the war and had a fleet poised to attack Earth itself. They just needed to finish the attack on Earth to win the whole war. To pull back from the edge of total victory to "finish the war later" makes no sense.

^^^
Well, if the writers were smart (and these really aren't sso I wouldn't expect what I'm about to say to be part of Season 2): The reason the 24 Houses pulled back their fleets and cancelled the attacked on Earth WASN'T because the war was over - they're all returning to tear L'Rell and her Clan a new one; and have (as a result) yet another Klingon Civil War for control of the Empire.

 

[saladdays]

3/10. An awful, rushed finale. The payoff to the Mirror Emperor plot was completely stupid (Wait, all of a sudden she's NOT a genocidal maniac? Really? She's probably killed billions, but she'll balk because... Burnham? Completely unearned, terribly plotted and even more terribly written. And, no lie, Michelle Yeoh still almost saves it with a sterling performance. Ash Tyler goes off with L'rell even though he has no place in Klingon society (they better have eaten him already, honestly), wasting a character that had potential, even if the writing never delivered on it in any meaningful way.

And Starfleet approved genocide, but because they all felt bad and changed their minds, there are apparently no consequences for anybody, including Burnham, who should still be in prison as a mutineer. Realizing you were wrong doesn't get you off the hook for criminal activity. And she gets a pardon... why? Not being willing to commit planetary genocide is a pretty low bar. I've never been willing to commit planetary genocide, and I'd argue against it if you tried to tell me to do it. So does that mean I'm free to speed, do drugs and kill individual people every day for the rest of my life? Or do I have to wait for all of you to get desperate and talk you back to sanity before I get that perk?

I didn't at all mind Burnham's overall moralizing, on the other hand. It was obvious where this was specifically going after last week, and the general strokes were clear as early as about week 4. But Michael Burnham remains a terribly uncompelling character. She makes me want to turn the show off. Make this show about literally anybody else on it (or even better, everybody else on it) and it would improve by an order of magnitude. Hell, the biggest problem on this show is that the two best characters are the guest star captains!

Could care less about the Enterprise cameo. It was obvious pandering, poorly handled and set up nothing that would make me want to come back. This really felt much, much more like a series finale jumping off point for a show that was cancelled unexpectedly than it did a season finale for a show planning more down the road.

Easily the worst episode of the season. Not enough to keep me from seeing what they do with season 2, but if it's just an endless parade of poorly written Trek tropes, like this terrible finale, I'm out with a quickness.

Now, tell us what you really think.

 

[The Memetic Susurrus]

It's not a conundrum though is it? It's actually the whole point of the thing--to show us the Enterprise with Pike and Spock.

Apologies. I should have clarified. What I meant to say was that, since one of the controversies surrounding Burnham was her--in my judgement, mind--completely unnecessary linkage to Sarek, Spock, and Amanda, perhaps the writing staff might want to avoid touching on that topic much more than they already have. Having her relationship centre around Sarek during a time when he was estranged from Spock makes a certain degree of sense in that it's an available niche and it fills certain gaps, psychological blind spots, if you will, in Sarek's personality (I'd love to get that guy on a Couch...). But a three-way meeting during that timeframe? That's a bit touch-and-go. Some might, incorrectly, I think, presume that that kind of "filling in continuity's gaps" is tantamount to revisionist history and maybe that kind of antagonism towards a certain element of the fanbase isn't needed when they're trying to right the ship after what appears to've been an uneven season.

I'm just speaking of the narrative here, not the fact they could do it. They certainly could. The question is: should they?

 

[cultcross]

Even weirder, although it's clearly meant to be the same room,

What makes you think this? Looking at the clip you posted, the ST09 room has banisters up the middle of the stairs, which are wider, a lectern, no black desk separating speaker and audience, and totally different admiralty desks. Not to mention that in universe they're in two different cities. Other than the basic idea of terraced seating at a hearing, I don't really see the similarities.

 

[Noname Given]

eschaton said: ↑
Those scenes didn't exist on TOS, and were relatively rare on DS9 and ENT. They were basically a TNG invention which was also used on VOY.

Don't make me post pics of the TOS crew in the briefing room.

Except he's correct. Yes, TOS did have Briefing Room discussions; BUT the majority of those were Spock/McCoy, etc. arguing AGAINST what Kirk was considering and being VERY against it (sometimes for good reasons) - and Kirk basically saying: "Thank you for your opinions but I'm the Captain, and we're doing <X>...To your posts..."

In TNG it became Picard being very passive aggressive in discussions on a subject; and 99 times out of 100 doing what was ultimately agreed on by everyone in the room.

 

[The Memetic Susurrus]

Unlikely. They're setting it up to at least see Ash Tyler come back one time next season, so I think seeing some Klingons is in the cards.

Hopefully it's just a one-off however.

They've all-but-ruined Ash for me, and he was my second-favourite character. His "reconversion" to Klingon reeked of identification with the aggressor (think Stockholm Syndrome, of a sort) and embittered me to whatever ambiguous fate the writers have intended for him now. Essentially, Burnham's reaction drove him back to the one person he (erroneously) thought could make him whole, even though his memories and affective states were of being raped and tortured. I lay that all at the feet of Michael. Not that she should have welcomed him back with open arms, but she certainly could have used a tad more empathy.

 

[Photoman15]

You think I keep typing Loreal and George-yo like its a typo and I don't know any better?

I just like saying Loreal and George-yo in place of their real names, cause I'm easily amused I suppose.

I also refer to Voq as either Powder or The Great White Hope. And Tkuvma as Tacoma.

But if you wanna keep following me around and correcting you go right ahead. You have your fun and ill have mine.

By the way Redundant High School called and wants a hall monitor.

This is just passive-aggressive behavior.

Depends on where you see the divergence. I took it to be the point at First Contact where Cochrane killed those invading Vulcans.

Way before FIRST CONTACT. I'd guess Edith Keeler, but some say even before her. There are images during the "Mirror" intro to ENTERPRISE of WWII Mirror stuff.

Some visual comparisons. Long Beach City hall as seen in Star Trek (2009)

1. STARFLEET is located in San Francisco, California
2. The UFP Headquarters (and it's Officials) are located in Paris, France

 

[cultcross]

So, aliens seen in the Orion Embassy sequence.
Klingons and Orions, obviously
Ceti eels
Trill

Anyone spot any others? I thought I thought a Mizarian, but some delicate freeze framing suggests it is actually an Orion wearing an odd hood.

 

[The Memetic Susurrus]

One further thought. In his last scene, I was thinking that out of all of the characters, Ash Tyler by far was given the best arc over the course of the series. He went from a traumatized PTSD survivor to an awakened Klingon sleeper agent, to a psychotic mess, and finally seemed to integrate both sides of his personality in the end, becoming comfortable both with his human and Klingon memories. Yes, I think the resolution (his going off with L'Rell - who he formerly saw as a torturer/rapist) was contrived. But Latif's performance sold me on his becoming a whole person, and heading off on his own, new adventure. And then the wrote this suddenly compelling character off the show as anything other than a likely recurring guest character.

His arc contrasts strongly with Burnham. As I said, Burnham never shows any real growth. She just makes random choices, many of which blow up in her face, until she makes one set of random choices (trusting MU Georgiou not to kill her, and L'Rell to hold up her end of the bargain) that seemingly work out okay.

Could not have said it better. Bravo.

 

[Rahul]

Here is the thing that nags me the most:
At the very end, when they received the emergency signal - even if it WASN'T the Enteprise, I was already MUCH more engaged - by the threat posed to a single Federation starship, by the possibilities of what could have happened - than I was at any time ever during the entire klingon war arc!

Guess what I'm saying is - I want to see more exploratory adventures. Strange and unknown dangers. War? Fuck that. Not even Star Wars get's that right most of the time - and that's literally called "Star Wars". Like, if I want to see a war story, I'll put Dunkirk, Full Metal Jacket or Apocalypse Now on. They treat it like a real thing (and, weirdly enough, DS9 - except for their starship battle scenes).

That's just not what I come to science fiction for. Gimme' any Isaac Asimov' inspired robot story before making me watch another space war - which will never be anything else than a glorified, sanitized version of WWII in Space anyway...

 

[Longinus]

They've all-but-ruined Ash for me, and he was my second-favourite character. His "reconversion" to Klingon reeked of identification with the aggressor (think Stockholm Syndrome, of a sort) and embittered me to whatever ambiguous fate the writers have intended for him now. Essentially, Burnham's reaction drove him back to the one person he (erroneously) thought could make him whole, even though his memories and affective states were of being raped and tortured. I lay that all at the feet of Michael. Not that she should have welcomed him back with open arms, but she certainly could have used a tad more empathy.

You fail to realise 'Tyler' is really Voq. He is where he belongs.

 

[AndyUK]

I thought it was alright, but it was a bit lacking as a finale to be honest. The Orion stuff was pretty cool and the moral dilemma is obviously classic Trek but I don't actually think the war plot has been that interesting personally.

I think the show has been at its best when it's focused on other stuff for the most part so I'm glad they can move away from it next season. It's been tell rather than show with the war, so the big speech and sentimental ending wasn't the big moment it could've been for me. 7/10.

Perfect cliffhanger for longtime Trekkies though. A team up episode with the Enterprise and Captain Pike will be very fun indeed.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Depends on where you see the divergence. I took it to be the point at First Contact where Cochrane killed those invading Vulcans.

There is no "divergence." That's a fundamental and conceptual misunderstanding of what a mirror universe is.

ETA: Just assume that the whole bit with ZC and his shotgun was simply as a launching point for "Star Trek History" (so to speak) within a mirror universe. However, it has certainly existed since the beginning of time.

 

[F. King Daniel]

What makes you think this? Looking at the clip you posted, the ST09 room has banisters up the middle of the stairs, which are wider, a lectern, no black desk separating speaker and audience, and totally different admiralty desks. Other than the basic idea of terraced seating at a hearing, I don't really see the similarities.

Same balcony above (where Spock said "Thrusters on full", same windows.

It's not exactly the same room to the last detail, but it's how I'd expect a show like Discovery to try and emulate it as best they can on a TV budget.

 

[XCV330]

They've all-but-ruined Ash for me, and he was my second-favourite character. His "reconversion" to Klingon reeked of identification with the aggressor (think Stockholm Syndrome, of a sort) and embittered me to whatever ambiguous fate the writers have intended for him now. Essentially, Burnham's reaction drove him back to the one person he (erroneously) thought could make him whole, even though his memories and affective states were of being raped and tortured. I lay that all at the feet of Michael. Not that she should have welcomed him back with open arms, but she certainly could have used a tad more empathy.

As a Klingon with human sympathies, he's much more useful on the other side. The ultimate mole.

 

[The Lonely Man]

Wow.

What a load of bollocks.

 

[Romulan_spy]

^^^
Well, if the writers were smart (and these really aren't sso I wouldn't expect what I'm about to say to be part of Season 2): The reason the 24 Houses pulled back their fleets and cancelled the attacked on Earth WASN'T because the war was over - they're all returning to tear L'Rell and her Clan a new one; and have (as a result) yet another Klingon Civil War for control of the Empire.

That would have worked. I feel like this finale was definitely rushed.