Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x15 - "Will You Take My Hand?"

[Rahul]

Come to think of it, this whole season would have flowed much better if they would have just skipped the mirror universe part. Lorca would have been just regular scarred ends-justify-means asshole, and the genocidal plan seen in this episode would have been his, and the final confrontation would have been between him and Burnham.

I wonder if that was Fuller's original plan?
We know from the producers that Fuller wanted to go to the mirror universe much, much sooner. The whole tardigrade/spore-drive shennanigans seem to be a late addition by the new team. They also confirmed in Interviews that Lorca wasn't originally from the mirror universe.
I can see the original plan as: The crew goes to the mirror universe. Comes back. But Lorca, who was already very military even beforehand, get's some "ideas" from there, and he is the one that wanted to genocide the klingons, and Burnham had to mutineer again, just this time for the right choice and to be awarded afterwards.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And the CG version in Discovery, with a non-blurry look at those baby blue "Cage"ish uniforms:

Yeah, that one's got to be CGI...

unless the film crew came all the way down from Toronto just to film that one scene.

 

[137th Gebirg]

No, but he was a manipulative bastard who turned out to be a murderous dictator. Probably every word he ever said to the crew was a lie (especially the rousing "polite scientists" speech). Everyone on the ship knows that by now.

If Regulorca ever turns up, I don't expect anyone on Discovery to like him very much. Even if he's genuinely upset by his counterpart's actions.

The Federation constantly skirts close to crossing the line when it comes to genocide. I remember there being a virus which would destroy the Borg from TNG and the disease introduced into the Changelings by Section 31 in DS9. Each time, there is a person of principle who stands up and course corrects the Federation.

Based on how the "leaders" of the Federation acted, sanctioning the use of the manipulator-in-chief Terran Emperor and advocating genocide, Lorca's really a small-time operator by comparison. And some people think Section 31 is bad!

 

[Tomalak]

Yeah, that one's got to be CGI...

unless the film crew came all the way down from Toronto just to film that one scene.

And got several identical twins to stand in different places!

 

[Longinus]

Pre-Federation, Archer outright destroyed a civilization through willful neglect because of his understanding of what eventually would be the prime directive.

Yes. And that is possibly the worst episode in Star Trek (yes, worse than 'Threshold'!) and one of the reasons (but sadly not the only) reason I consider him to be absolutely the worst captain.

 

[Noname Given]

A quickie, because for a rare once I don't have time to go through the previous 30 pages:

How come only the Emperor knew the volcanoes of of Qo'noS were active?

I mean, of course Starfleet would have every right to know, from those Vulcan files a century out of date, or from more recent intel they won't share with Saru or Burnham. Nothing wrong with that. And of course the Emperor would know, being the rightful owner of said ruins herself. But how come Voq didn't know, or at least didn't tell the heroes?

Is it just that the heroes didn't ask him the right questions, and Tyler wasn't able to volunteer stuff like that without direct tickling of the relevant memories? But Tyler was briefed on the plan and its absolute dependence on the volcanoes being dead. Didn't that trigger any comment from Voq?

Timo Saloniemi

Because she did to MU Qo'Nos what she was going to do to PU Qo'Nos, She assumed (rightly) that both planets were roughly the same geologically.

As for Tyler - I'm amazed Voq new as much as he did about the Klingon military since he was a 100% societal outcast until T'Kuvma found him; and even in T'Kuvma's circle he was an outcast until he stepped in to assume the role of "Torchbearer".

Pre-Federation, Archer outright destroyed a civilization through willful neglect because of his understanding of what eventually would be the prime directive.

Yes. And that is possibly the worst episode in Star Trek (yes, worse than 'Threshold'!) and one of the reasons (but sadly not the only) reason I consider him to be absolutely the worst captain.

Oh please. In both TNG's "Pen Pals" and "Homeward" Picard was ready willing and able to leave BOTH those Civilizations to their respective fates (read: extinction) except for what he considered a mistake by Data (in the case of "Pen Pals"); and another mistake by Worf's Human brother (in the case of "Homeward".)

And in "Homeward" you even had a character who committed suicide; and Picard still questioning if, in the end, he actually did the right thing.

Archer's dilemma and ultimate decision were in perfect keeping with the quandary presented by the "Prime Directive" and he was one of the first Captains (yes, before it was a true Directive in Starfleet) with the balls to make and carry out a hard decision.

The only other times it was a real quandary was the TOS era. In the TNG era the writers always gave the Captain a pat way out of any real "Prime Directive" dilemma where they really HAD to make a hard choice and live with it.

 

[XCV330]

I would suspect his asking price would be far greater than their budget could adsorb, especially for what will amount to a 'bit part'.

He's not exactly swimming in roles right now. If CBS and Paramount are getting cuddly, I doubt anyone would mind it at all.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

I'll put this bluntly. The showrunners will look stupid if they set up this situation but then not have Spock!

I dunno putting spock in and then screeing it up opens the stupid risk pretty wide. If I was them ida played it safe and not even showed the enterprise like some big deal. I'd show the constellation or something.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Interesting how there doesn't appear to be any Command-gold in the audience, only Science-blue. And Ops-red wasn't a thing until after the second pilot. This is a really strange scene.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Even weirder, although it's clearly meant to be the same room, that's the Eiffel Tower outside wheras in ST'09, it's in San Francisco with the Golden Gate bridge visible. Hmmm.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Yes. And that is possibly the worst episode in Star Trek (yes, worse than 'Threshold'!) and one of the reasons (but sadly not the only) reason I consider him to be absolutely the worst captain.

Yeah he may be the absolute worst. I'm not very high on Janeway, and I know Archer gets a handicap for the makin' it up as ya go thing, but that one was pretty bad.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Andorian in the back row, towards the right, looks like a hologram!

 

[XCV330]

Yes. And that is possibly the worst episode in Star Trek (yes, worse than 'Threshold'!) and one of the reasons (but sadly not the only) reason I consider him to be absolutely the worst captain.

Agreed and agreed.

 

[137th Gebirg]

The Andorian in the back row, towards the right, looks like a hologram!

It almost looks like the new subdued uniforms also have the same shoulder striping as the current uniforms do. That one you mentioned, in particular shows it more clearly than others.

 

[barryseymour]

I agree with this, but how much of this is actually a result of the writers? I was always under the impression that when it comes to things like vocal tone and body positioning (aside from the most obvious screen direction like "____ punches ___") it was up to the director and the actor to figure out the performance.

Well, the actor acts, then the director says "I love that," or says "let's do it again, but try this..." It's up to the actor to come up with things, but the director is still the gatekeeper.

 

[CaptainMurdock]

Interesting how there doesn't appear to be any Command-gold in the audience, only Science-blue. And Ops-red wasn't a thing until after the second pilot. This is a really strange scene.

The woman in red is Amanda.

 

[Butters]

I gave it seven, a respectable score. That’s mostly because I’m a lore junky. Loved seeing Kronos with a whole praxis in orbit. And our own moon with city lights at last. And space dock under construction.

Enterprise, Pike, Amanda. It’s all good.

The plot, was ok. Wasn’t as bad as Torchwood’s first finale, mostly garbage building up to the tardis appearing at the end, but I did worry when I learned about the enterprise.

Overall, this one earned a rewatch.

 

[137th Gebirg]

The woman in red is Amanda.

AH! Okay, so only Science-blue is present, then. No Command or Ops personnel that I can see. Still weird. New cadet uniforms, maybe?

 

[Tomalak]

Based on how the "leaders" of the Federation acted, sanctioning the use of the manipulator-in-chief Terran Emperor and advocating genocide, Lorca's really a small-time operator by comparison. And some people think Section 31 is bad!

The Federation is never as pure as they like to claim.

• Nearly blew up Qo'nos
• Genesis device
• Attempted genocide - Borg
• Attempted genocide - Founders
• General order 24
• Assassination of Gorkon

 

[eschaton]

Yes. And that is possibly the worst episode in Star Trek (yes, worse than 'Threshold'!) and one of the reasons (but sadly not the only) reason I consider him to be absolutely the worst captain.

Yeah, Archer was a far better example than Burnham of a protagonist who keeps making terrible decisions yet keeps getting built up due to the needs of the plot.

Of course, I never had to listen to T'Pol call him a boundless wellspring of compassion.