Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x10 - "Despite Yourself"

[GeekUSACarl]

I never would've guessed that when I finally decided to join, my first post here would eventually be my two cents about a debate on the appearance of an actress. That being said, there was a point raised here about how having Tilly be dolled up for the MU undermines the notion of having normal, everyday people around, judging them by their personalities and actions, not their looks, because the instant she dons her captain's outfit, the narrative turns into the age-old 'nerd girls can clean up nicely too' trope instead.

I don't know if anybody else felt like this, but I took the scene where dresses up as her alter ego as a commentary on this, mainly based on how obviously uncomfortable she was the whole time. Granted, it came from the thought, which she was even discussing at the moment, of there existing another version of her who is apparently a bloodthirsty mass murderer. However, when she, with a tinge of sadness in her voice, remarked how her mother would be proud, I immediately thought of the scene where she first touched upon her childhood, namely how her mother never told her anything unless if she was criticizing her hair (and, I might add, possibly more).

I tend to psychoanalyze characters a lot, which may be good or bad (as I often create subtext where none exists, which might be the case here as well), but I couldn't help but think about her seeing herself in the mirror all dolled up, and having this sudden feeling of utter wrongness, maybe along the lines of 'This is not me. This is what mom wants me to look like.' I think it's quite obvious even without being stated that her mother used to criticize her appearance a lot and this quite surely took its toll on her self esteem. I think it's quite possible she had a flashback then and there of her mother telling her how girls are supposed to look pretty and perfect, how her hair is a mess and so on.

Again, I might be just reading more into this than I should, but I think it's certainly a good thing that it had, at the very least, me thinking on how the characters themselves might feel when they know they're being 'sexied up' for whatever in-universe reason.

I just took it as she has to be a mean sob now.

And she did a great job. Yeah nerd girls can be meanies and all. Maybe overrused but that doesn't mean it isn't good when done in the right way in the right time.

Besides more than half that ship are probably nerds and eggheads

 

[137th Gebirg]

I never would've guessed that when I finally decided to join, my first post here would eventually be my two cents about a debate on the appearance of an actress. That being said, there was a point raised here about how having Tilly be dolled up for the MU undermines the notion of having normal, everyday people around, judging them by their personalities and actions, not their looks, because the instant she dons her captain's outfit, the narrative turns into the age-old 'nerd girls can clean up nicely too' trope instead.

I don't know if anybody else felt like this, but I took the scene where dresses up as her alter ego as a commentary on this, mainly based on how obviously uncomfortable she was the whole time. Granted, it came from the thought, which she was even discussing at the moment, of there existing another version of her who is apparently a bloodthirsty mass murderer. However, when she, with a tinge of sadness in her voice, remarked how her mother would be proud, I immediately thought of the scene where she first touched upon her childhood, namely how her mother never told her anything unless if she was criticizing her hair (and, I might add, possibly more).

I tend to psychoanalyze characters a lot, which may be good or bad (as I often create subtext where none exists, which might be the case here as well), but I couldn't help but think about her seeing herself in the mirror all dolled up, and having this sudden feeling of utter wrongness, maybe along the lines of 'This is not me. This is what mom wants me to look like.' I think it's quite obvious even without being stated that her mother used to criticize her appearance a lot and this quite surely took its toll on her self esteem. I think it's quite possible she had a flashback then and there of her mother telling her how girls are supposed to look pretty and perfect, how her hair is a mess and so on.

Again, I might be just reading more into this than I should, but I think it's certainly a good thing that it had, at the very least, me thinking on how the characters themselves might feel when they know they're being 'sexied up' for whatever in-universe reason.

Good insights! I, too, thought the "mother's approval" line was interestingly melancholy on her part.

And welcome to the board!

 

[SJGardner]

I just took it as she has to be a mean sob now.

And she did a great job. Yeah nerd girls can be meanies and all. Maybe overrused but that doesn't mean it isn't good when done in the right way in the right time.

Besides more than half that ship are probably nerds and eggheads

Certainly. The overall experience will help her growth immensely, and if she comes out of this whole debacle as more confident, surer of herself and what she's capable of, learning a few things on how to keep cool and collected in unanticipated situations (and maybe being a mean SOB when the situation calls for it), this might be a huge step for her towards realizing her dream of being a captain. As you said, she did a great job when talking to Connor.

 

[Albinator]

I never would've guessed that when I finally decided to join, my first post here would eventually be my two cents about a debate on the appearance of an actress. That being said, there was a point raised here about how having Tilly be dolled up for the MU undermines the notion of having normal, everyday people around, judging them by their personalities and actions, not their looks, because the instant she dons her captain's outfit, the narrative turns into the age-old 'nerd girls can clean up nicely too' trope instead.

I don't know if anybody else felt like this, but I took the scene where dresses up as her alter ego as a commentary on this, mainly based on how obviously uncomfortable she was the whole time. Granted, it came from the thought, which she was even discussing at the moment, of there existing another version of her who is apparently a bloodthirsty mass murderer. However, when she, with a tinge of sadness in her voice, remarked how her mother would be proud, I immediately thought of the scene where she first touched upon her childhood, namely how her mother never told her anything unless if she was criticizing her hair (and, I might add, possibly more).

I tend to psychoanalyze characters a lot, which may be good or bad (as I often create subtext where none exists, which might be the case here as well), but I couldn't help but think about her seeing herself in the mirror all dolled up, and having this sudden feeling of utter wrongness, maybe along the lines of 'This is not me. This is what mom wants me to look like.' I think it's quite obvious even without being stated that her mother used to criticize her appearance a lot and this quite surely took its toll on her self esteem. I think it's quite possible she had a flashback then and there of her mother telling her how girls are supposed to look pretty and perfect, how her hair is a mess and so on.

Again, I might be just reading more into this than I should, but I think it's certainly a good thing that it had, at the very least, me thinking on how the characters themselves might feel when they know they're being 'sexied up' for whatever in-universe reason.

I never took Mirror Tilly as being a sexualized version of our Tilly. The major difference in her appearance was her hair-- that's it. She wore the same captain's uniform as Burnham and Connor. They didn't digitally slim her down or have her talk or carry herself in a sexually aggressive fashion (like Mirror Kira).

The point I took from it was the same simple mirror concept: whereas our Tilly is a socially awkward cadet, "Killy" was a confident, assertive Captain.

 

[Nyotarules]

"Head cannon"-- well first, it's "canon" and second, that doesn't change the facts. I have to say though, how would most people describe someone who is so willfully in denial of the world that they invent their own reality in their head to cope with it?

Mentally disturbed.

The world? Its a TV show, its already made up stuff!

 

[Albinator]

Also to say she "cleans up nice" is to say she is less attractive normally. I think her curls are quite attractive. Our Tilly never comes off as asexual, or a physical mess. On the contrary, in the Mudd episode, at the ship party, she talks about her past relationships and attraction to musicians, and is dressed up in a nice outfit, and at one point I believe is even seen successfully flirting with another crewman.

The point being here is that I don't think any kind of commentary (subtle or otherwise) has ever been made about her physical appearance being less than anything.

The world? Its a TV show, its already made up stuff!

I'm not going to get into it further, given the silly warning I received over it, but I didn't mean the fictional world of Star Trek, I meant the real world, where producers said this was in the Prime Universe.

 

[SJGardner]

Also to say she "cleans up nice" is to say she is less attractive normally. I think her curls are quite attractive. Our Tilly never comes off as asexual, or a physical mess. On the contrary, in the Mudd episode, at the ship party, she talks about her past relationships and attraction to musicians, and is dressed up in a nice outfit, and at one point I believe is even seen successfully flirting with another crewman.

The point being here is that I don't think any kind of commentary (subtle or otherwise) has ever been made about her physical appearance being less than anything.


I'm not going to get into it further, given the silly warning I received over it, but I didn't mean the fictional world of Star Trek, I meant the real world, where producers said this was in the Prime Universe.

To clarify, I never meant to imply she was any less attractive before, I simply didn't see the need to comment on whether I find her attractive or not, only intending to comment on the discussion of this episode in this thread that did take a turn towards a debate on her appearance. To be fair, she's more attractive to me as Cadet Tilly, but I don't think this should be important, especially when measuring her worth as a character. I myself are quite happy with the fact that the show itself has never made her looks an issue in any way (apart from that comment on her mom criticizing her hair, which might not even turn up again, let alone become relevant if the show won't explore her childhood) which is the right course to take. She would be the same character, no matter how she looked.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Good insights! I, too, thought the "mother's approval" line was interestingly melancholy on her part.

Tilly has her daddy's hair.

Mommy and daddy do not get along so well anymore.

 

[jaime]

I finally got around to watching the episode this morning and I really enjoyed.
Since pretty much everyone expected them to be in the Mirror Universe, I wasn't surprised by the reveal, but I do like it. I find the whole idea of the Discovery having to go undercover in the MU a lot more interesting than war with the Klingons.
I'm glad to see we're closing in on the Tyler/Voq reveal.
I've seen some people predicting that Lorca was from the Mirror Universe, and the stuff revealed about Mirror Lorca in this one actually makes that seem more likely.
Tilly as the MU Discovery captain was fun.
I'm disappointed they apparently killed Culber, and I'm really hoping since this is Trek they'll find a way for him to survive or be revived.

They may just go with paralysis. Snark - it ticks a box. No snark - it could be a slow recovery and an interesting look at medicine in Trek, and an interesting thing characterise for him and his various relationships. He has to have memory loss or be in a coma for a few episodes cos of Voq reveal.

 

[jaime]

Unfortunately very true. And you don't know until it's too late.

Doesn’t apply here thankfully, because for MUpeople, there’s no way to learn the behaviours and hide. Their universe is different.

 

[jaime]

You're quite right, and I have to say I hadn't considered that. If we take the idea that this is indeed Mirror Lorca, and he "replaced" the real Lorca after the destruction of the Buran, than I believe it's been about a year since he "crossed over."

Again, assuming these things are true (I'm not quite convinced yet) -- that means he's missed out on at least a year's worth of events and progress in the Mirror Universe, and in that turbulent reality, a lot can change in that span of time.

Why am I not convinced? Well, I haven't read all 50+ pages of this thread, but wouldn't a simple medical scan reveal his aberrant quantum signature? When Burnham makes note of it, it didn't seem to be something she was LOOKING for, just something that popped up on her normal sensor data.

I have to believe that if he were from the Mirror Universe that SOMEwhere along the line over the course of the year a medical scan, transport log, or tricorder reading would have made note of his quantum signature.

Then again...Admiral Cornwell said he ain’t the man she knew.

 

[Albinator]

To clarify, I never meant to imply she was any less attractive before, I simply didn't see the need to comment on whether I find her attractive or not, only intending to comment on the discussion of this episode in this thread that did take a turn towards a debate on her appearance. To be fair, she's more attractive to me as Cadet Tilly, but I don't think this should be important, especially when measuring her worth as a character. I myself are quite happy with the fact that the show itself has never made her looks an issue in any way (apart from that comment on her mom criticizing her hair, which might not even turn up again, let alone become relevant if the show won't explore her childhood) which is the right course to take. She would be the same character, no matter how she looked.

Agreed. And I don't think the producers were trying to make any statement about her appearance other other than to give her a different physical characteristic for contrast. I don't see it as being any different than Spock's goatee or Archer's spiked hairdo.

Which is interesting on Enterprise, because they sexed-up T'Pol and Hoshi by giving them very skimpy outfits, which was kind of pointless considering T'Pol already wore a form-fitting catsuit, and Sato wasn't exactly an asexual or prude. Clearly done to attract a certain audience.

 

[SJGardner]

Doesn’t apply here thankfully, because for MUpeople, there’s no way to learn the behaviours and hide. Their universe is different.

Exactly. A sociopath learns to act civilized because they need to be around other, ordinary people all the time. Terrans are savages who only know other savages.

 

[Nyotarules]

Then again...Admiral Cornwell said he ain’t the man she knew.

War changes people, as a doctor she should know that

 

[Albinator]

Did anyone else think the writers were using the Mirror Universe as another example of the xenophobic alt-right and/or insular foreign culture? Is it going to become another allegory and message to examine today's politics?

 

[Search4]

A few thoughts... loved the episode.

First: Wonderful that the Defiant moved between universes... but of course, it didn't move between universes on its own power. It moved between universes essentially by accident. Specifically IIRC it phased out with Kirk, and then the phaser blast sent Defiant "elsewhere" and Kirk was alone. Hey, that sounds hard to recreate. Perhaps they will learn about the anomaly, but there's not that much else to learn from Defiant.

Second, if mirror Discovery under Captain Killy could "win the war with the Klingons..." then if that really is Mirror Lorca for the first episodes in the prime universe, couldn't he have won the same war? I don't think one ship can win the war, except for the spore drive.

Third, does mirror Discovery have a spore drive? They did "switch places" as best we know now. If so, who's done the research and how coincidental is it that both "jumped" simultaneously?

And fourth, if the Terrans have the spore drive, is it that the capability that lets the Terrans be the aggressive Empire we see and win against other, older space faring cultures? Could Defiant have spore-drive records the Terrans could reconstruct? Prime universe stopped using it, but Terrans are happy to do genetic experiments and navigate that way.

 

[Amaris]

I'm wondering if we should take anyone's death in this show seriously? It's all a big cheat. Culber will surface again somehow some way. Georgiou too.

Sort of wondering about Mirror Tyler. Is there one?

I want to know about Mirror Tyler more, because love is all around and I think he might just make it after all*.





*Oh please oh please oh please get this reference so I don't feel like I'm 90 years old.

 

[jaime]

War changes people, as a doctor she should know that

Oh I was just going for a ‘dun dun dun’ sentence, with a hint of suggesting it was a writer being ‘clever’

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Did anyone else think the writers were using the Mirror Universe as another example of the xenophobic alt-right and/or insular foreign culture? Is it going to become another allegory and message to examine today's politics?

If true, i always thought it was funny that this is seen as some commentary on modern society considering this has existed for all of human history.

Its like, great job, y'all so creative.

If true,

 

[Nyotarules]

I want to know about Mirror Tyler more, because love is all around and I think he might just make it after all*.





*Oh please oh please oh please get this reference so I don't feel like I'm 90 years old.

I geddit!