"DSC sucked, got better" is not a centrist position.
Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x10 - "Despite Yourself"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
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"DSC sucked, got better" is not a centrist position.
Ask Landry...........
It's possible that Tyler's digital identity was "put" on the Federation servers, specially since that really is Voq's original body.
Agreed. I've lurked this site a long time and seen so many people hung up on "agendas" - from both sides of the aisle. Honestly, when watching programming I want to be entertained. If the overall story is truly hampered by someone pushing an agenda, that is just wrong to the audience and selfish of that person. Unfortunately, determining if that agenda has hampered ones entertainment is entirely subjective to that person. But if they don't like it, they can turn the channel. Personally, I feel that DSC has embraced the spirit of ST and is entertaining to me. I don't know who's pushing what agendas, if agendas are being pushed at all.
People complain about Tilly, and I believe that is their right to complain, but I'd like to point out that she is what makes things work for me and fits with the ST spirit. Someone who is different from the status quo but who is also valuable to the ship and its mission. I truly believe EVERYONE has something to bring to the table - even if their viewpoints are different from mine, even if they are different from me, and even if they annoy the shit out of me. Entertaining viewpoints other than your own is healthy and encourages personal growth . Except when people just become blatantly intolerant, IMHO there is no room for outright ignorance.
I was thinking, if ISS discovery is in the regular universe, what is it doing?
MU universe humans know of the RU, they have some advantages, and they could come back in MU before USS discovery leaves it.
Also, does ISS discovery have spore drive?
MU universe humans know of the RU, they have some advantages, and they could come back in MU before USS discovery leaves it.
Also, does ISS discovery have spore drive?
Maybe I missed something, but I figured there was an Ash Tyler that was taken captive by the Klingons. Voq was surgically altered to match that existing Ash Tyler, who was then killed.
At least that would open up for an Ash Tyler to be in the Mirror Universe, as well as a Voq.
At least that would open up for an Ash Tyler to be in the Mirror Universe, as well as a Voq.
I guess mainly prominent identities featured in the data but it would've been interesting to see him outed. Everybody has trusted him body and soul, and messed up or not, he's a creep.
One of the things I said before Discovery was cast was that I hope this new Trek will extend its diversity to include different body types and I think they have helped to do that with Mary Wiseman. I don't think there will be an obesity crisis in Trek's future because of greater understanding of health etc, but I don't think everyone will look the same or all skinny or, for that matter, all of the exacting and highly subjective beauty standards of the early 21st century.
Mary Wiseman is a perfectly ordinary sized girl with fabulous hair and an awesome smile. You don't have to find her attractive, no more than you have to find Shazad Latif attractive (or anyone else) but that doesn't mean much regarding how well-written her character is.
Heroes come in all shapes and sizes and levels of 'conventional beauty'. There is no correlation between beauty and heroism, unless you think IRL that supermodels with charitable causes are greater heroes than the often overweight or middle aged or ordinary looking women who provide emergency medical care in war zones, or rescue children during natural disasters, or stand up to oppressive militant regimes, or whatever else...
So yeah, anyway, there's a lot I don't like about Star Trek Discovery, and I should say that I enjoy on-screen 'eye-candy' as much as anyone, but that doesn't mean that every character needs to look some kind of absolute idea of 'beautiful'. Star Trek should be representing that as much as anything else and I can't even comprehend how that could be in question.
Mary Wiseman is a perfectly ordinary sized girl with fabulous hair and an awesome smile. You don't have to find her attractive, no more than you have to find Shazad Latif attractive (or anyone else) but that doesn't mean much regarding how well-written her character is.
Heroes come in all shapes and sizes and levels of 'conventional beauty'. There is no correlation between beauty and heroism, unless you think IRL that supermodels with charitable causes are greater heroes than the often overweight or middle aged or ordinary looking women who provide emergency medical care in war zones, or rescue children during natural disasters, or stand up to oppressive militant regimes, or whatever else...
So yeah, anyway, there's a lot I don't like about Star Trek Discovery, and I should say that I enjoy on-screen 'eye-candy' as much as anyone, but that doesn't mean that every character needs to look some kind of absolute idea of 'beautiful'. Star Trek should be representing that as much as anything else and I can't even comprehend how that could be in question.
maybe they will not discover how Defiant went in MU.
Or discovery universe is not the regular universe.
I don't know, do you think L'Rell set up the prison with Mudd etc. captured the real Ash and got out the buzz saw...
Off topic, but I saw this interesting count of the number of aliens on various Trek shows:
As for the episode, I found it entertaining, and thought that the Mirror Universe was set up very well, in terms of faithfulness to Mirror Mirror, DS9 and ENT. But it's largely a set-up for the next couple, so they will be the true test.
- Enterprise: 2 (T’Pol, Phlox) out of 7 (Jonathan Archer, Malcolm Reed, Travis Mayweather, Hoshi Sato, Charles “Trip” Tucker III, T’Pol, Phlox) = 29%
- Discovery: 1 (Saru) out of 6 (Michael Burnham, Ash Tyler, Paul Stamets, Sylvia Tilly, Gabrial Lorca, Saru) = 17%
- The Original Series*: 1 (Spock; yes, Spock is only half-human, but we’ll count him as non-human for our purposes) out of 6 (James T. Kirk, Leonard McCoy, Montgomery Scott, Uhura, Hikaru Sulu, Spock ) = 17%
- The Next Generation: 3 (Worf, Deanna Troi, Data) out of 9 (Jean-Luc Picard, William Riker, Geordi La Forge, Tasha Yar, Beverly Crusher, Wesley Crusher, Worf, Deanna Troi, Data) = 33%
- Deep Space Nine: 4 (Odo, Jadzia Dax, Quark, Kira Nerys) out of 8 (Benjamin Sisko, Jake Sisko, Odo, Jadzia Dax, Miles O’Brien, Quark, Julian Bashir, Kira Nerys) = 50%
- Voyager: 5 (B’Elanna Torres, Kes, Neelix, The Doctor, Tuvok) out of 9 (Kathryn Janeway, Chakotay, Tom Paris, Harry Kim, B’Elanna Torres, Kes, Neelix, The Doctor, Tuvok) = 56%
As for the episode, I found it entertaining, and thought that the Mirror Universe was set up very well, in terms of faithfulness to Mirror Mirror, DS9 and ENT. But it's largely a set-up for the next couple, so they will be the true test.
...Albeit unintentionally, as TIlly's looks are played exclusively for laughs - it's a plot point that she's supposed to have bad looks and worse social skills.
Of course, now that Tilly has switched roles to MU eye candy, the usage may change. Again possibly unintentionally, although I would gather the whole Captain Killy thing has been specifically designed to change the character and give her new self-assurance and whatnot. (And, no doubt, the initial goofiness was also designed as maximal contrast for this planned-for change.)
While this is what is really going on in the show, none of this has anything to do with any of the issues below:
1) Whether fans find Tilly/Wiseman attractive or not (sign me in the former camp, at any rate)
2) Whether T/W is attractive or not, in some metric or another
3) Whether T/W is a role model or not, for some agenda or another, intended or not
It is likely to have something to do with these, though:
4) Whether T/W represents a trend or an exception-emphasizes-the-rule case
5) Whether DSC will do more of the sort with other characters, that is, deviate from Hollywood rules of aesthetics on body, face, personality, teeth or whatever
6) Whether W gets typecast
Timo Saloniemi
Well... in a series where the principal characters are grey and grim, Tilly is a ray of light. I really like her.
Now about Voq/Tyler ...well... IIRC, the Vulcans have "The Katra" ... I tend to think that some kind of "Living spirit" could happened to this character.... but not on a physical level.
Now about Voq/Tyler ...well... IIRC, the Vulcans have "The Katra" ... I tend to think that some kind of "Living spirit" could happened to this character.... but not on a physical level.
A few thoughts--
First, going to the mirror universe would be a pretty significant adventure that would be known in Starfleet, which means Kirk and crew would have a strong idea what happened in Mirror Mirror because they would know about Discovery. This would be even more true if the mirror Discovery would have appeared in the prime universe, doing who knows what...
I think it's a big time cop out to say, "well, nothing says they can't go there," or "it was top secret."
First, why would it be top secret? It's not like time travel where you can alter history. If anything, it would serve as a warning as to what can go wrong and as an example of how proud the Federation should be that they managed to get so many races to get along.
Second, if this is the mirror universe, and the Empire is humans only, how is it that Spock is a member of the Enterprise crew? Even if he were some sort of Vulcan rebel, why would the humans allow him on the ship in such a position of authority?
Now that the Discovery knows of the Defiant's fate, isn't it their duty to save the lives of those people when they get back to their own universe (unless they never will get back, which would be a very interesting turn of events).
First, going to the mirror universe would be a pretty significant adventure that would be known in Starfleet, which means Kirk and crew would have a strong idea what happened in Mirror Mirror because they would know about Discovery. This would be even more true if the mirror Discovery would have appeared in the prime universe, doing who knows what...
I think it's a big time cop out to say, "well, nothing says they can't go there," or "it was top secret."
First, why would it be top secret? It's not like time travel where you can alter history. If anything, it would serve as a warning as to what can go wrong and as an example of how proud the Federation should be that they managed to get so many races to get along.
Second, if this is the mirror universe, and the Empire is humans only, how is it that Spock is a member of the Enterprise crew? Even if he were some sort of Vulcan rebel, why would the humans allow him on the ship in such a position of authority?
Now that the Discovery knows of the Defiant's fate, isn't it their duty to save the lives of those people when they get back to their own universe (unless they never will get back, which would be a very interesting turn of events).
Some of the above points are "showstoppers", telltales that the DSC heroes cannot survive to tell the story. That's a two-part requirement, though, with the telling bit just as relevant as the surviving bit. What happens to them is left for future episodes, then - death, stranding in an alien realm (this MU or some other thing altogether), amnesia, silencing by Men In Mauve, a good reason to stay mum on their own, whatever.
Some are sort of neutral, though. In the 2250s MU, Vulcans rebel. By the 2260s, perhaps they are well and duly suppressed and the Vulcan Quislings who helped with that are rewarded. Or then the rebellion remains on back burner and having Vulcans in the Fleet is a countermeasure of some sort.
Timo Saloniemi
Some are sort of neutral, though. In the 2250s MU, Vulcans rebel. By the 2260s, perhaps they are well and duly suppressed and the Vulcan Quislings who helped with that are rewarded. Or then the rebellion remains on back burner and having Vulcans in the Fleet is a countermeasure of some sort.
Timo Saloniemi
Why was T’Pol a member of the bridge crew in the Mirror Universe? I assume Vulcan is run by a puppet government, maybe one where its leaders get privileges above and beyond the rest of the populace, and the general population has seen the logic of working with the Empire instead of ending in a bloodbath. They’re not slaves; they’re a subjugated people with fewer rights than the Terrans. But they are educated and they live their lives, albeit under constant suspicion, and they serve on vessels and in other areas. The rebels are probably not looked upon with approval by most Vulcans.
Hmmm...I don't see Tilly as "comic relief" at all. I see her more as the "everyman". I can't think of anything the writers had Tilly do that was only for comic relief.
I think Tilly is the character with whom many of us can identify, and the character we can imagine through whose eyes we can experience the story. She's just so freakin' excited to be there, and that exuberance can't be bound up.
Which is why I (and it seems many others) love the Tilly character.
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Spock, mirror or otherwise, is also half-human. Perhaps he is the privileged son of a Terran matriarch and her enslaved Vulcan boytoy.
Asserting their dominance over the Vulcan rebellion by hybridizing them and then placing those hybrids in prominent positions, could be the idea.
Of course, it falters when Spock ends up supplanting the Empire itself and forcing the alien ideal of pacifism unto the bloodthirsty populace. He isn't an interstellar Surak, and the other Rebels (Klingons, at least) use it as an opening to enslave their former enslavers.
The mirror universe is just the story of Vulcans causing problems. I don't trust Mirror Tuvok.
Asserting their dominance over the Vulcan rebellion by hybridizing them and then placing those hybrids in prominent positions, could be the idea.
Of course, it falters when Spock ends up supplanting the Empire itself and forcing the alien ideal of pacifism unto the bloodthirsty populace. He isn't an interstellar Surak, and the other Rebels (Klingons, at least) use it as an opening to enslave their former enslavers.
The mirror universe is just the story of Vulcans causing problems. I don't trust Mirror Tuvok.
Yeah it is, it showed I didn’t like it, gave it a chance, like it. I think the fact I cross from one side to the other shows I didn’t have blind hate nor have blind love for it.
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