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The Janeway debate

In my experience... a tendency to blame men's insecurities about women in charge as the main reason they dislike Janeway.
I don't think being a female captain should afford Janeway any more or less judgement than if she were male or alien. However reaction citing her emotions sometimes makes me wonder if it comes into play sometimes. I believe mostly Janeway is viewed as a personality more than anything and her performance in situations.
 
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All scripts written by men need to be discounted?

Men are stupid.

So, which episodes where only written by women?

1X01 Caretaker Teleplay and story co-written by Jeri Taylor
1X05 Phage Teleplay co-written by Skye Dent
1X07 Eye of the Needle Teleplay co-written by Jeri Taylor, Story by Hilary J. Bader
1X15 Jetrel Teleplay co-written by Karen Klein
1X16 Learning Curve Co-written by Jean Louise Matthias
2X01 The 37’s Co-written by Jeri Taylor
2X04 Elogium Teleplay co-written by Jeri Taylor
2X08 Persistence of Vision Written by Jeri Taylor
2X12 Resistance Teleplay by Lisa Klink
2X14 Alliances Written by Jeri Taylor
2X20 Investigations Teleplay by Jeri Taylor
2X22 Innocence Teleplay by Lisa Klink
2X25 Resolutions Written by Jeri Taylor
3×06 Remember Teleplay by Lisa Klink
3X08 Sacred Ground Teleplay by Lisa Klink, Story by Geo Cameron
3X11 Warlord Teleplay by Lisa Klink
3X13 Fair Trade Story co-written by Jean Louise Matthias
3X15 Coda Written by Jeri Taylor
3X16 Blood Fever Written by Lisa Klink
3X20 Favorite Son Written by Lisa Klink
3X22 Real Life Teleplay by Jeri Taylor
3X24 Displaced Written by Lisa Klink
4X03 Day of Honor Written by Jeri Taylor
4X05 Revulsion Written by Lisa Klink
4X07 Scientific Method Teleplay by Lisa Klink
4X14 Message in a Bottle Teleplay by Lisa Klink
4X15 Hunters Written by Jeri Taylor
4X17 Retrospect Teleplay co-written by Lisa Klink
4X21 The Omega Directive Teleplay by Lisa Klink
4X25 One Written by Jeri Taylor
5X08 Nothing Human Written by Jeri Taylor
5X11 Latent Image Story co-written by Eileen Connors
6X05 Alice Story by Juliann deLayne
6X08 One Small Step Teleplay and story co-written by Jessica Scott
6X11 Fair Haven Written by Robin Burger
6X14 Memorial Teleplay by Robin Burger
6X20 Good Shepherd Teleplay co-written by Dianna Gitto, Story by Dianna Gitto
6X21 Live Fast and Prosper Written by Robin Burger
7X07 Body and Soul Teleplay co-written by Phyllis Strong
7X14 Prophecy Teleplay co-written by Phyllis Strong
7X20 Author, Author Teleplay co-written by Phyllis Strong
7X24 Renaissance Man Teleplay co-written by Phyllis Strong

http://www.trekradio.net/star-treks-women-writers/

Lets see if there are still any sexist episodes?

2X12 Resistance Teleplay by Lisa Klink: Janeway pretends to be a prostitute to distract a prison guard.

3X11 Warlord Teleplay by Lisa Klink: Jennifer in sexy-sexy Bondage leather, suggesting a bisexual threesome.

3X15 Coda Written by Jeri Taylor: Janeway dies 14 times.

3X22 Real Life Teleplay by Jeri Taylor: Holograms for sex is good, so that real people don't have to be bothered by drips who don't measure up, wasting their time, even if it is slavery... What's the sexual equivalence of cannibalism? The Doctor's wife may have to bow down to humans, and other sapient beings, but the Doctor as a hologram himself, and "the same" as his wife, which is abusing her ignorance to take advantage of her good nature, which is just rude.

4X14 Message in a Bottle Teleplay by Lisa Klink: Were there any women in this episode? 2 minutes in the beginning and at the end. Never mind. It's a very penis heavy episode for a writer without a penis.

6X20 Good Shepherd Teleplay co-written by Dianna Gitto, Story by Dianna Gitto: No complaints. Just about perfect.
 
Men can write scripts and women can write scripts. BOTH can be stupid! I never look at the names of episode writers unless it comes up in a discussion.

Damn but... Message in a Bottle I liked. Resistance was quite sad at the end. I didn't hugely care for Real Life, I didn't like the Doctor's family much. I would have switched them off. Good Shepherd was very good. Coda was a little creepy, like the devil. Then there's Warlord which I remember fondly because of Jennifer.

Thing is of the scripts written by men, if you're a fan in general you tend to like them too. Male writers shape the characters too (obviously) and I personally enjoyed the characters.
 
It's not about her competence, but her overall attitude of being smug, self-assured, and overconfident to the point of arrogance, despite her being placed in perhaps the most desperate situation ever faced by a Starfleet captain.
This level of female bravado might have worked for Katharine Hepburn in 1940's movies, where a certain level of "Mary Sue" quality was redundant; but if a science fiction series wants to be taken seriously today, then a captain has to show SOME level of believable realism in the characters manner, for the situation being faced.
Here we have something that no Captain was ever really prepared for: Not only was the ship thrown to the other side of the Galaxy, but the ship is damaged, they are Far Behind Enemy Lines, and a large portion of the crew are rebel terrorists. This would put a lot of pressure on any Captain, even James T Kirk, but Janeway is not even a very experienced captain and yet just seems completely unflappable despite being faced with impossible odds, while taking ridiculous chances and insulting the audience's intelligence by having everything just magically work out the way she wants it to-- as if the entire series is just a Mary Sue hologram Adventure she is living, like William Riker with the Voyager series-- and on CHEAT mode.
Ironically, even the ships holographic Doctor has more of an appropriate response to the situation, and the unemotional Vulcan science officer likewise seems quite annoyed perpetually at the seemingly hopeless situation; but Janeway just acts cocky and snide, as if it's the Kobayashi Maru test and she reprogrammed it so she couldn't lose-- she literally seems to approach every situation with the sameobnoxious apple-munching nonchalance of Chris Pine in the 2009 reboot during that test.
As a result, even the series actors and writers like Ronald D Moore and Robert Beltran had serious problems with the series. Janeway never realistically sacrifices, struggles, or suffers as a true leader in such a trying circumstance, and at most she just gets into catfights with the character in the cat-SUIT. It's no wonder that Q wanted to marry Janeway, they have so much in common with the snide cocky attitude and being all-powerful. Perhaps Kate Mulgrew thought she was being like William Shatner as Captain Kirk, but that is just a one-dimensional performance where he is confident and cocky-- which he either postures solely as bravado, such as when he knows he is facing death, or after his crew and ship are safe.
In contrast, Mulgrew's One-Note performance of being a smartass Mary Sue is not convincing; it is just ANNOYING.
The only possible course for such an erratic series about stranded voyageurs, is either Mutiny on the Bounty, or Gilligan's Island. I will leave you to figure out which one the series took... as you sit right back and hear a tale, A Tale of a fateful trip.

Anyone can bowl a perfect game by hitting the reset button. deus ex machina.

which also ended with her hitting the reset button... on the entire timeline.

I myself I am thoroughly impressed, since female captains did not even exist before Kirk's time... along with Spore Drive.

Here's hoping .... I'd hate to see Paramount make that mistake twice. Nobody that irrational should ever even make ensign. Even if they are Spock's step-sister.
Blah, Blah, Blah. Make an argument. Use examples.
You come off as just a guy who hates Janeway. You don't have to pretend to be objective, but at least try to be fair. Also, If you're going to name names, it would be to the good of the forum if you used them in context. What did Beltran say? Did he have a problem with Janeway's character? Are his complaints about not getting enough cool stuff to do as an actor relevant here?
Or Ron Moore. Did he have complaints about Janeway's character? He was a producer in the pre season of season 6. He was there for like a few weeks, and had a different idea for the show. If you want to see his idea of Voyager, you can go watch BSG. His comments are irrelevant also(in this "Janeway debate")

Swarm.

Swarmies "Do not cross our borders. If you don't think we are serious, we are going to beat up some of your crew half to death. Stay away."

Neelix "I know these guys, they turn people inside out, and mount their bodies on hooks. They really like their alone time. We should stay away. 18 months is a small price to pay for not being turned inside out."

B'Elanna "Relax Kitchen rat, we can cloak our selves and be super sneaky to shave 18 months off a seventy year trip that we just started. They'll never know we trespassed on their homespace against their explicit threats and instruction, out of sight, out of mind."

Janeway "Cool. Fuck'em. Make it so."

B'Elanna "Opps, our cloak broke. They can see us. 20 thousand little ships are coming to murder us. Oh bother, I guess I'm not as smart as I thought that I was. We gonna die."

Janeway "Don't worry, I'll be diplomatic: Hello, I'm better than you and allowed to do anything I want because we thought that you were dumb and weak, but maybe I was wrong, and it is me who is dumb and weak, so please don't turn me inside out just because I miscalculated how dumb you are. I'm still better than you, and your wishes are irrelevant because I am better than you, so like, just go away and don't murder us, because that's dumb."

Swarmies: "Dudes, we said you will die, so you will die, did I stutter? Prepare to die."

B'Elanna "Good news everyone! We can murder them all! Their ships are stupid... 20 thousand ships, 8 crew per ship, that's a 160,000 Swarmies, all dead simultaneously at the push of one button, and then the hundred and 40 of us are safe from the police men trying to keep it's citizens safe form invasion by murderers. That's us, the invading murderers, but fuck it, I'd rather be an immoral asshole than dead."

Janeway "Sweet, murder them. 140 humans ( and a few other unimportant aliens) is morally and racially worth more than 160 thousand swarmies because we are righteous, and I would kill triple that number of Swarmies to keep my own skin right side in and off a hook, because I am special. Kill them all."

And the Swarmies died.

And Janeway never ever thought about this genocide ever again, for the rest of her life, especially 5 years later when Icheb and little (powerless) Q did the same thing, and Janeway handed those two kids over for execution for trespassing on the foreign space of litigious assholes without permission.

"Sigh"
For satire to be funny, it must ring true. Is this really what you saw? It couldn't have been as that isn't what happened, in either episode.

Did the swarm warn them? No.
Did their "cloak" fail? No. They got spotted for being good samaritans. If they had left that ship adrift, they would have been fine.

Genocide?

The Swarm aliens didn't die, they ran away. A couple that were latched to the ship died, but that's not Genocide. It's simple self defense.

Janeway trying to sneak through unfriendly territory is absolutely in character for her. She does it many times.

Her mission is to get home, and keep everyone alive. That involves traveling through a whole lot of foreign territory.

Janeway undermining oppressive aliens is also in character for her. She does it many times.

So she didn't "genocide" the swarm aliens. ......and also didn't offer Icheb and Q Jr. to be executed. Maybe you're amalgamating various Q episodes? This simply doesn't happen. She tells Q2 that he has to go back to the aliens he pissed off and find out how to fix Icheb, so Icheb doesn't die. He does the right thing, then the alien(who is really Q) says the parent is always held responsible, and that Janeway will pay for his crime. Qjr pleads, offers himself, and the charade ends.

From now on you should quote the transcript, along with your satirical version, so we can feel safe that we aren't being misled.
 
^ I must admit I didn't read that opinion piece in your first quote box, Prax, back in the thread when it first appeared. I did wonder why the emphasis on Janeway being distinct by being female beyond the obvious that she was the lead of Voyager and the Captain. I'm truly loathe to play the female card. You know where you might say 'Oh you just don't like Janeway because she's not a male stereotype'. To me that would dilute someone's very right to not like or to like Janeway for being - Janeway. Though I did flinch a bit reading the line 'female bravado'. That kind of sounded patronising, bravado is bravado. (Then I read through more of the post and it mentioned being impressed by Discovery and it made sense, lol. All things Voyager are copping a bit of a trashing to make up for...yeah well).

That being said Janeway earned her place in the franchise as a successful Starfleet Captain if one measures success by doing her utmost to navigate her crew through the Delta Quadrant. Like how it played out or not that is her record.
 
For satire to be funny, it must ring true. Is this really what you saw? It couldn't have been as that isn't what happened, in either episode.

Did the swarm warn them? No.

There's a fence around swarm space. It's hard to see from a distance, but when you cross it your ship cocks up, and two nasty bastards board your ship, tell you to fuck off, and stun you. Leaving the stunned crew the opportunity to wake up and fly away home is a warning. Considering how little they think of foreigners that's pretty fricking benevolent for the situation.

Then Neelix says...

NEELIX: If these people are who I think they are, I can tell you this is very bad news. I've never actually encountered them but from what I've heard I'm glad I didn't. Most ships that enter their space are never heard from again. Some have returned with everyone on board dead. They're a complete mystery. No one knows their name, how many of them there are, what the culture is like. Just that they really don't want people violating their territory.

So Tom and B'Lanna are attacked at the border, and Neelix explains the Swarm attacks everyone that crosses the Swarmie border. Cause and effect. No wiggle room. You cross it, you get attacked. Read the room Janeway!

TUVOK: Would it affect your decision if I pointed out that encroaching on the territory of an alien species is prohibited by starfleet regulations?
JANEWAY: No, it wouldn't.
TUVOK: Captain, you have managed to surprise me.

LOCK HER UP! LOCK HER UP! LOCK HER UP! LOCK HER UP! LOCK HER UP! LOCK HER UP! LOCK HER UP!

Seriously.

Lock her up.

Did their "cloak" fail? No. They got spotted for being good samaritans. If they had left that ship adrift, they would have been fine.

It was a trick, not a cloak, I know that. The trick failed because they did something suicidally stupid. Voyager alerted its presence to murderers who wanted to murderer them, just to save idiots who should have known better, that they were baiting murderers and deserved death for being galactically stupid. Upon being caught, Janeway pretends that she is a friendly person that deserves mercy for being the nicest person in the universe, but since the Swarm didn't fall for that lie, she started murdering Swarmies by the gross. How fricking peaceful.

Genocide?

Well now I am em embarrassed. They say that they are starting a chain reaction that is going to destroy all the swarmies, which is the genocide I clearly remember.... That didn't actually happen.

JANEWAY: All right, here's what we're going to do. Turn those pulses right back on them. Tuvok, lock phasers on their nearest ship. If we can destroy one of them, there's every chance the interferometric pulse that links them together will cause a chain reaction.

The Swarm should be dead. Janeway tried to exterminate the entire swarm, but failed. She's not guilty of a small genocide only because fortuitously the woman is incompetent. Unless her back ground as a science officer didn't teach her the difference between a chain reaction and a controlled detonation?

The Swarm aliens didn't die, they ran away. A couple that were latched to the ship died, but that's not Genocide. It's simple self defense.

I remember the entire swarm blowing up. It's been a while. That didn't happen, but I just finished watching the episode seconds ago, and there was at least 30 ships docked to Voyager which exploded, so that's a hundred swarmies, maybe more, who were incinerated, before Tuvok says that the Bulk of the Swarm ran away from the peace loving Kathryn Janeway.

Janeway trying to sneak through unfriendly territory is absolutely in character for her. She does it many times.

Which she should be extradited for a dozen times over, to go back and face local justice in all the local courts where she pissed on the local laws, far, far away.

Her mission is to get home, and keep everyone alive. That involves traveling through a whole lot of foreign territory.

Her mission is to rescue Tuvok, and firebomb the Maquis from space with tricolbalt devices.

Janeway undermining oppressive aliens is also in character for her. She does it many times.

Exactly. She's an asshole.

So she didn't "genocide" the swarm aliens. ......and also didn't offer Icheb and Q Jr. to be executed. Maybe you're amalgamating various Q episodes? This simply doesn't happen. She tells Q2 that he has to go back to the aliens he pissed off and find out how to fix Icheb, so Icheb doesn't die. He does the right thing, then the alien(who is really Q) says the parent is always held responsible, and that Janeway will pay for his crime. Qjr pleads, offers himself, and the charade ends.

ALIEN [on viewscreen]: In our culture adults are accountable for the actions of their children.
JUNIOR: I attacked your ship. I should be punished for it, not her.
ALIEN [on viewscreen]: You don't even know what the punishment is. It might be torture, or even execution.
JUNIOR: I don't care, if it means saving my friend.

Yes it was a trick, but Janeway and the Qling did not know that, and the nasty alien may have cut one of Q's hands off for all the luck these people have. They submitted to Alien law, because it's what Janeway taught them to do, even if she has trouble following through on her own lessons.

From now on you should quote the transcript, along with your satirical version, so we can feel safe that we aren't being misled.

You could have quoted Tuvok saying that the swarm had escaped without being destroyed.

You didn't.

I had to wade into this shit again, which has not improved my mood.

You're welcome.
 
Just a small note but when Voyager finally regrouped in the Delta quadrant they took on a new mission statement.

JANEWAY: We're alone in an uncharted part of the galaxy. We have already made some friends here, and some enemies. We have no idea of the dangers we're going to face, but one thing is clear. Both crews are going to have to work together if we're to survive. That's why Commander Chakotay and I have agreed that this should be one crew. A Starfleet crew. And as the only Starfleet vessel assigned to the Delta Quadrant, we'll continue to follow our directive to seek out new worlds and explore space. But our primary goal is clear. Even at maximum speeds, it would take seventy five years to reach the Federation, but I'm not willing to settle for that. There's another entity like the Caretaker out there somewhere who has the ability to get us there a lot faster. We'll be looking for her, and we'll be looking for wormholes, spatial rifts, or new technologies to help us. Somewhere along this journey, we'll find a way back. Mister Paris, set a course for home.
 
I think maybe Seven was on to something.

Anyways, Janeway didn't offer Q2 to the grumpy alien. She just sat there and listened to his admonishment of junior. At no point was his life, limbs, or freedom in jeopardy. Icheb wasn't offered either. He was sitting in sickbay with a short circuit.
 
As they children, Icheb and Q didn't have the facilities to make those decisions without parental approval.

Janeway (and Q somehow) were the parents in this situation, and if things were getting out of hand, like one of those kids volunteering to be executed, it was their job to step in.
 
I think Janeway was just speaking poetically when she said the only Federation vessel "assigned" to the DQ. As in "we're here so let's do what we always do and explore new civilizations, new life, etc..."

I have argued in the past however she did consciously or not play a De Soto sort of role in terms of the federation and DQ. Her explorations, technology, data, diplomatic contacts, even all the nebulas laid the groundwork for future federation expansion.

Even Q said humans would enter the DQ in a century-perhaps he didn't mean Janeway and one ship but in force as colonizers and explorers. Which doesn't jive badly with either Star Trek Online or the novels where more ships are sent out, contact and conflict with DQ species begins picking up-probably with humanity and the federation expanding throughout by the century after Voyager's first voyage.

Voyager was an advance scout, trailblazer, first explorer. Perhaps Janeway was conscious of that role perhaps she wasn't or subconsciously she acted in a way that would assist the Federation's future expansion in the DQ.
 
Depends which timeline.

Kathy could have been assigned by the Romulans who would soon find out about this mission in Eye of the Needle 20 years ago.
 
They contacted one Romulan captain who died before Voyager ended up in the DQ to begin with and didn't appear to tell anyone.

If the Romulan government knew they probably weren't in a position to take advantage of it.
 
Eye of the needle 2371 was a timeline where the messages had not been sent back.

When Telek Met Kathy, a new timeline was created where the Romulans knew.

Later at some point we must have switched time tracks, to where Telek Rimor passed this intelligence up the chain, which is how conversations like this is possible...

BARCLAY: The Borg must have sent a transwarp probe to steal my hologram. Maybe because they, they thought that it was carrying anti-Borg technology to Voyager.
HARKINS: It wasn't the Borg, Reg.
BARCLAY: Then it was the Romulans using a cloaked ship. They've been curious about Voyager for years.
HARKINS: That is enough.
 
There's only one timeline, and it includes Voyager talking to a Romulan science ship from the past.
Voyager had another contact with Romulans in the Prometheus episode. If that second contact didn't spark their interest, nothing would.
 
Perhaps Barclay was referring to off screen Romulan intrigue and interest generated by those two previous incidents.

I can certainly see the romulans being interested in acquiring the strategic knowledge and value of the DQ.

So the romulans investigating Voyager and its discoveries certainly seems possible.
 
Voyager as a vessel would have created interest (Romulan) when she was in the Alpha Quadrant. Any subsequent interest from her disappearance and later contact would not be unusual. It doesn't suggest a twist to the story or timeline based on 'Eye of the Needle'. In 'Inside Man' it was not the Borg or Romulans that had messed with Holo Reg it was the Ferengi so that just proves how much information and (general) interest Voyager had attracted for the Ferengi to get in on the act. I doubt the Romulans were involved anymore than what was shown.
 
I assumed it was either poetic to speak of, otherwise she assigned herself and crew to the Delta Quadrant with her choice.
 
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