Amen Paid Plant! Discovery is 80% character driven.
Is this show actually "character driven" at all?
- Thread starter eschaton
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Amen Paid Plant! Discovery is 80% character driven.
That's character? More like random mesh of plot driven flaws.
Yes it's character, it's obviously character you don't like but she has many character traits that are developing and forming.
There is a difference between "I don't like that character" and "she has no character"
Character traits aren't the same as character development. Character development occurs when previous events have lasting implications for the character. So far, Michael's time on Vulcan doesn't seem to have had that, and it's unclear what effect her seven years with her mentor have had. And all of that effectively occurred offscreen. The closest she's come to character development in the episodes we've seen is that she abruptly manifests PTSD or something like it and now seems remorseful for reasons that aren't explained. But that's straight out of the writer's bible; it's part of the show's premise rather than something they've actually explored. There would be less need for all the arguing over whether it's PTSD if the show had actually built up to her mutiny rather than using it as a shorthand plot device. But maybe we'll get it yet.
No, like almost all popular entertainment the characters behavior exists to service plot - the game pieces move as necessary, or they don't move.
That's plot-driven story telling.
What you're really discussing for the most part is whether the characters in the story are well-drawn and plausibly motivated to do what is required of them. YMMV, but to be fair I'd say some are and some are not.
That's plot-driven story telling.
What you're really discussing for the most part is whether the characters in the story are well-drawn and plausibly motivated to do what is required of them. YMMV, but to be fair I'd say some are and some are not.
From what we've learned about Vulcans it seems apparent to me that Vulcan superiority + high intelligence, + her combat training from Vulcan have been on display pretty good.
obviously her conundrum and choice during the mutiny have had lasting implications, and I think it's pretty clear her choices now, being put on a redemption track, vs going back to prison have lasting implications.
It's been five episodes, and they are setting up multiple characters in a somewhat intricate story line, I think there is some unreasonable expectation to give everyone everything they want in a few episodes.
She just isn't a character you like but there is plenty of development.
Since this show is designed to an audience less familiar, I think they might have an easier time.
I agree. That would be interesting.
That is not correct. PTSD is a specific cluster of symptoms, that can include flashbacks, or avoiding specific situations, among others.
One of my favorite scenes.
Completely agree. That is not needed.
It clearly has had a very negative impact upon her development. Which, is actually an interesting take.
Indeed.
I agree with you here. They've spent too much time setting up the chess pieces, IMO, but now that they're in place, I'm willing to see where it goes.
It just seems odd to me that they rushed through all that stuff to get to a rehash of Devil in the Dark.
I'm not even sure I get the likable/not-likable argument, which seems orthogonal to what I'm discussing.
Maybe I'm mildly "on the spectrum" or something, but I can't think of a single time I have identified with or cared about a character in any work of fiction. Looking at Star Trek, there are plenty of moments that brought me to tears in episodes like The Inner Light, The Visitor, Duet, etc. In terms of general character beats, Odo's longing for Kira was something I identified with when I was a teenager, and as a parent, I now find some of the character moments that O'Brien and Sisko had as parents to be very touching. But I never felt emotionally invested in the characters, only in those moments themselves.
Maybe I'm mildly "on the spectrum" or something, but I can't think of a single time I have identified with or cared about a character in any work of fiction. Looking at Star Trek, there are plenty of moments that brought me to tears in episodes like The Inner Light, The Visitor, Duet, etc. In terms of general character beats, Odo's longing for Kira was something I identified with when I was a teenager, and as a parent, I now find some of the character moments that O'Brien and Sisko had as parents to be very touching. But I never felt emotionally invested in the characters, only in those moments themselves.
Anyway, my point is, at least to me, fiction is kind of like getting on a ride at an amusement park. Good fiction is immersive, and stills the inner voices. You just experience the story without reflecting on glaring plot holes or poorly constructed characters at the time. When you're done, you might reflect upon it a bit, but ultimately what matters is the "ride" while you're experiencing it, not the moments afterward. I don't expect a character to be personally likable - I just expect them to be a plausible human being, and the character beats to be entertaining in some way (amusing, bad-ass, heart-wrenching - something).
Just different experiences.
Personally, I can enjoy a work ok with characters I don't connect with, but works that I do, on some level (Spock, Luke, Riddick, George Kirk, Captain America) take me to a different level. It feels like the they are living breathing individuals in a real world.
I don't really treat it like a "ride" but something to explore and discover.
Personally, I can enjoy a work ok with characters I don't connect with, but works that I do, on some level (Spock, Luke, Riddick, George Kirk, Captain America) take me to a different level. It feels like the they are living breathing individuals in a real world.
I don't really treat it like a "ride" but something to explore and discover.
I can't agree with either point - I think the effect of both has been quite explicit. Burnham's influences are very important to the show and coalesce and interact in interesting ways, and that is pretty much the plot of the pilot two parter. We are now seeing a new influence in her life - Lorca, and on to of that the aftereffects of what happen at the Binary Stars. I daresay we will find Tilly has quite an impact too. That's a fair bit, for four episodes in.
^^^
And this is why STII:TWoK is generally considered one of the best TOS feature films despite all the plot holes, canon and continuity errors that would be glaringly derided were fans to view it from that standpoint.
Well, we disagree. I believe that Burnham's actions so far, have driven the plot. The character has been at dead center of most, if not all of the major plot developments, driving them forward. She (accidentely) started the conflict between the Klingons and the Federation. Burnham instigated the mutiny. It was he plan that resulted in Georgiou's death. Burnham was primarily responsible for saving the away team and the discovery of the tartigrade. It was her work with the tartigrade that allowed the rescue of the miners at Corvan 2.
Prior to the start of the show's premiere the producers promised a character driven show (boy was THAT a source of debate around hear). That is what we are getting. Why do you believe the plot is driving the character's actions rather than vice versa?
Even though you have attempted to narrow the parameters of what can be defined as "solid character moments", and keeping in mind that we have only seen 4 episodes, there have already been several strong character moments involving Burnham which have been unrelated to the plot.
The show's initial scene on the desert planet and the conversation between Burnham and Georgiou, which defined their close relationship and Burnham's professional standing in Starfleet and on Shenzhou.
The initial bridge scene prior to discovery of the anomaly in the nebula, which defines Burnham as competitive, a bit arrogant and dismissive, to downright disrespectful, if she perceives someone as unworthy of same. (poor Saru)
On the shuttle with the other prisoners, when the shuttle gets into trouble and the other prisoners begin desperately trying to free themselves, Burnham just sits there, even though she has already shown she knows more about the problem than anyone aboard. Showed that at that point, Burnham didn't care if she died. This is her second strongest character moment.
Burnham's fight in the mess hall. She didn't mind dying of suffocation on the shuttle, but wasn't going to allow herself be beaten to death. Obviously, she still has some fight in her.
The first meeting with Tilly. Establishes Burnham's overall feeling about being on the Dis and that she wasn't feeling touchy feely.
The flashback scene when she first came aboard the Shenzhou with Sarek. Burnham. initially came across as supremely confident and a bit arrogant, but later, due to some gentle prodding and incisive honesty by Georgiou, shows she is capable of showing respect and amicability.
Her conversation with Saru on Dis, when she mentions she heard his eulogy at Captain Georgiou;s funeral and apologized to him.
There are probably some I'v missed, but stop here with the strongest character scene ofor Burnham of the series, her hearing Georgiou's will and the telescope. As I wrote earlier, I think this may help to jump start Burnham regaining her mojo. If you missed the importance of this scene and feel it was "useless", I don't know what to say. The scene wasn't there to teach us anything new about how Georgiou felt about Burnham. The scene was to let us know that Burnham was once again being inspired by Phillipa's words and regaining her sense of self worth and self respect, in addition providing us a scene where Burnham says her final goodbye.
Yeah, I know, you don't think any of these are "strong character moments unrelated to the plot".
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It'll be Mirror-Georgiou.
If they actually are going to do a 'Mirror' episode, I'm l;looking forward to it as Miorror Captain Georgiou is probably alive and well, and enslaving races. If they had a similar encounter as depicted in ST: D - "The Vulcan Hello"; I could imagine this exchange:
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I am loving DSC so far. To me, the "one trait" bit that seems a negative to you is a positive. What did we have at the beginning of TOS? Spock was all logic. Bones was emotion. Kirk was gut feeling intuition. Scotty was Mr. Deus Ex Machina fixit man with some Scottish stereotypes tossed in for flavor, and so on.
So yes, at the beginning of DSC, we are seeing "one traits" because they help us get a handle on completely new characters as well as set up obvious conflicts between different personalities. The constant Bones / Spock bickering in TOS was great, and we can see that the groundwork has been laid for some genuine interaction between DSC characters as well as the series progresses.
That's what a lot of video game a like these days. All flash, and bang.
The more I think about it the more it seems like this was originally a post-Nemesis story that was quickly rejiggered into a pre-Kirk story with Klingons and Sarek. That would explain the uniforms, the ships, the tech, and I bet they weren't supposed to be Klingons but they spent all the money on the alien design and decided to use it anyway.
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