Spoilers Game of Thrones - Season 7
- Thread starter dahj
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That would be quite a thing to introduce Democracy to Westeros and all the people go "Dafuq is this democracy thing?"
Well.. Ned was a widely respected leader in the North and either by custom or admiration no other House in the North challenged or conspired against him so he was completely unprepared for the snake pit that was King's Landing and he paid with his life for this mistake.
Jon is a warrior.. he gained respect by leading people in combat with honor, integrity and courage (not traits usually linked to politicians). Time for politics is coming to an end though and nobody but Jon and the Wildlings/Night's Watch know about the real danger that's coming which is why he was so frank in front of Dany.. seems by the current episode he at least tore down part of that wall when they discovered the ancient murals.
However Cersei still has to be dealt with first.. they can't move all their armies north while Cersei is still active, there'd be no land to come back to or worse, they'd have to fight a war on two fronts (and they barely have the men to win against the Walkers).
Personally i think Jon will either have to find (un)living proof of the White Walkers by capturing one (insane plan) or they will break through (or rather shamble around) the Wall and ice will hit the fan. Once word spreads support may arrive and Dany will pledge fully to the war but this means time is running out for her to defeat Cersei which may call for much more extreme action.
Well, like his uncle.
That's a problem with their thinking, though. The only one looking long-term is Baelish. The rest haven't even bothered to take seriously the lack of agreed-upon heirs to the Targaryens, the Lannisters, the Martells, the Tyrells, or even really the Starks. The wars are at hand, and whole kingdoms/fiefdoms will fall at the death of just one or two people. If they're not careful: distant cousins will be fighting over the scraps, and the Seven Kingdoms will go the way of Valyria.
I'd agree with a lot of that. However, I'd add that being politically inexperienced can hamper Jon's abilities to find allies. He's trying to get Dany on board but any small progress towards that is thanks to Tyrion who is more experienced politically. I think a lot rests on Tyrion. If he goes bye-bye, things get a lot more difficult. The Jon-Dany negotiations may well fall apart. I don't think there will be proof of the white walkers for awhile.
While Dany seems more progressive, she's convinced of her birthright in Westeros. She's been motivated by it since the beginning of the series. It's what kept her going throughout her exile. Someone mentioned up thread that Essos wasn't her birthright and so she wasn't has hard on them. I agree with that. However, I don't see her giving up on the Iron Throne. I think the military situation is heading towards a stalemate at least in the form of a drawn out siege. That's going to try her patience. I think her inner dragon is going to be thoroughly unleashed and results in a bloody, damaging battle in Kings Landing. Frustrations with failing negotiations with Jon and a bogged down siege will only drive her this way faster!
An interesting thought, suppose the existence of the White Walkers is proved to Dany, what is her reaction? In a sense, a logical step would be to finish the conflict with Cersei as soon as possible in order to confront the White Walkers with a united front. Peace with Cersei isn't likely so perhaps that too pushes things towards the nuclear options--dragons melting Kings Landing and a violent battle in the city. Finish Cersei if a quick but bloody battle that probably severely damages the city.
There seem to be many ways in which the prophesy comes true. I'd be nervous if I lived in Kings Landing!
Varys has, although that's less clear in the show as it is in the books. Especially considering his actions in the final chapter of the last book.
Her what now?
When she hates somebody her first instinct is to treat them much like her father would have, 'burn them all'. She has an element of her father's sadism and she's constantly having to call herself on it and steer differently to avoid becoming the same kind of monster.
How many times has she ordered horrible punishments on people then had second thoughts after listening to her advisors? She ordered the masters of Yunkai all killed and then took it back. She was ready to burn King's Landing to the ground before Tyrion and Jon spoke up.
I really don't think that's where the story is going. something horrible will probably happen at King's Landing (because this is Game of Thrones after all
), but I don't think Dany will be the catalyst. Her whole arc was about learning to become a good ruler, that she'd say "ah, fuck it" at the last minute doesn't seem likely to me.I think she believes they're real now(the chalk did the trick
), she just doesn't realize how imminent the threat is.Both of those, killing the Masters and burning the Red Keep, are decisions that any ole' pretender to the throne would have made in her shoes, because they are simple and effective. The fact that she listened to her advisors and chose not to do that and be a different kind of queen should speak the opposite of "she has insane bloodlust", shouldn't it?
Then I'm glad I kept it vague. His (and Baelish's) intentions aren't made clear until much later.
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What happens if she loses trust in her advisers? What happens if they're otherwise removed from being able to temper her instincts towards violence and destruction? What happens when she feels betrayed and abandoned and the world is against her?Both of those, killing the Masters and burning the Red Keep, are decisions that any ole' pretender to the throne would have made in her shoes, because they are simple and effective. The fact that she listened to her advisors and chose not to do that and be a different kind of queen should speak the opposite of "she has insane bloodlust", shouldn't it?
I have a feeling we're going to find out in the next episode.
I don't get where this "Dany's one step from flipping out and going proper mad" thing is coming from
"Every time a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin" as to the state of their madness. Perhaps hers has merely been delayed. Her engagements have been fairly small and largely on a face-to-face basis. She's finally in campaign mode, directly engaging with her dragons and full-strength armies against other full-strength armies for the first time. This may be the catalyst to push her into full-on blood fury mode. Despite the wisdom of her commanders and advisors, she's still an experienced girl (still under 18 I think) especially on matters regarding Westerosi politics, warfare and culture.
I don't think she is insane, but power corrupts even the best of us. She is flawed; arrogant, entitled, impulsive and vengeful by nature or nurture. What happens to that personality when you put it on the back of a dragon, turning men to ash by the hundreds with a word?I don't get where this "Dany's one step from flipping out and going proper mad" thing is coming from
Part of what makes this story so compelling is that "everyone is the hero of their own story." Cersei thinks so. Jon thinks so. Dany thinks so. But where Cersei is a clear villain through her actions, and Jon is a clear hero though his. Dany is thus far driven far more by her claim to the throne than she is by wanting to do what is right for the people of Westeros, and eventually she'll have to make a decision between the two. I don't take it at all for granted that she will make the heroic decision.
Yeah, I had the same feeling because I caught up on the books after season three (I started before but didn't catch up until that point, so I was blissfully surpyby the Red Wedding). The diversion becomes a lot bigger after the third book as you'll quickly see.
They still rewrote major portions of the first few books (Robb, for example, has his character turned into a romantic idiot rather than a young man caught between two dishonorable choices), they just brought them back around to some key touchpoints before diverging again. The main difference after the 4th season or so is they stopped bothering with those touchpoints.
Or those touchpoints are slightly misaligned, such as when Jaime returns to King's Landing or Tyrion arrives in Mereen.
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