The potshots at JJTrek are interesting....
To me "Axanar" actually seems more reminiscent of the Abrams movies than TOS, at least in terms of visuals. I'm sure the producer wouldn't want to hear that.
Kor
Axanar dropped a plot spoiler about a month ago
- Thread starter Phantom
- Start date
The potshots at JJTrek are interesting....
To me "Axanar" actually seems more reminiscent of the Abrams movies than TOS, at least in terms of visuals. I'm sure the producer wouldn't want to hear that.
Kor
The supposed "potshots" are much exaggerated by over-sensitive fans, least as far as I've seen (I mean I'm not watching all the podcasts so maybe Burnett has accused Abrams of buttsecksing his proverbial childhood in one of them, and that would be bad form if so, but I don't see much sign of it in their workaday ad copy or communications). Far as I understand it the Axanar team have borrowed plenty from the updated visual style of NuTrek, they're just not into the reboots' approach to storytelling. Which obviously undergirds their approach but really isn't all that unusual a view or worth getting bent out of shape about.
"Save the Federation"?
In listening to the podcasts, and such, There is defiantly an Anti-JJ Trek twinge to them. Are they grossly overt? no, but you can tell, that These two gentlemen are smart enough to know where their bread is buttered. By politely dismissing JJ Trek, they stir up the most vocal of the Franchises fanbase, and reap the rewards of donations. I would say these guys are shrewd businessmen, but considering Proworks went belly-up owning 400K to MGM... I would be wrong.
I've seen them go back and forth on it. Part of the impetous for producing Axanar, from what I read, was the concept that Abrams Trek left some fans feeling shorted, so they set out to correct that. Fair enough, I suppose, and I can understand that.
But, it also feels like it dips in to the "True Trek" argument, from time to time, which I'll concede can happen on the other side too.
I don't get "bent out of shape" over it, so much as I raise an eyebrow at it.
(like that). If that is there approach, then that's fine, and I hope they do well. I just don't have any desire to take Axanarand Abrams (or any other film and fan series) and hold them side by side. If Axanar tells me a good story about interesting characters, then it is a success, in my book. I just want them to tell their story, not the story that they feel will be the most anti-Abrams, true Trek fan production on the Internet.
I doubt most people do. Except maybe the various media outlets that periodically try to stir the pot with "there are two Trek movies coming out next year" headlines.
If the Vulcan "walk and talk" scene I saw with Soval is any indication, then right now the Axanar team should exercise restraint and humility.
Gary Graham was just fine- but the actress playing the Vulcan Councilmember? She was poor. I tried to find a graceful way to say it-- to be polite and sensitive- but I...just... can't.
Saying so doesn't make me negative. Yes, it makes me a critic of the material- not critical of the people and effort involved in bringing it to us.
A slight... but critical difference.
I am reminded of the last South Park episode- "Safe Space". It's totally germane to what seems to have happened here.
If we now all accept the notion that if one has been simply "courageous enough to put themselves out there", and therefore expect everyone to throw roses and turquoise phaser pistols just for showing up- then we're all doomed.
Oh, and this goes for all fan productions, podcasts, and any and all manner of You Tubie things -
Wake up and smell those roses, 'cause life is not a turquoise phaser pistol.
Gary Graham was just fine- but the actress playing the Vulcan Councilmember? She was poor. I tried to find a graceful way to say it-- to be polite and sensitive- but I...just... can't.
Saying so doesn't make me negative. Yes, it makes me a critic of the material- not critical of the people and effort involved in bringing it to us.
A slight... but critical difference.
I am reminded of the last South Park episode- "Safe Space". It's totally germane to what seems to have happened here.
If we now all accept the notion that if one has been simply "courageous enough to put themselves out there", and therefore expect everyone to throw roses and turquoise phaser pistols just for showing up- then we're all doomed.
Oh, and this goes for all fan productions, podcasts, and any and all manner of You Tubie things -
Wake up and smell those roses, 'cause life is not a turquoise phaser pistol.
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My observations exactly. Plus the bridge set looks like that of an Abrams movie, as does the prop design and Klingon ships. If they really hate the Abrams movies, they're sure cribbing from them.
THIS.
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I think most people liked the Vulcan scene - it surely wasn´t a very complex scene (aside from a technical standpoint).
I personally had no problem with the actress. Describing her as "poor" might be a critic, but not a helpful one. In what way you found her "poor"? An unhelpful critic do make one appear negative.
Robert Burnett has often stated that he liked the first JJ movie, but does not like the second one - because of the story, not because of the looks! I think a lot of Trek fans feel the same (at least I do). Axanar is trying the impossible here - trying to bridge the gap between the influences of the first JJ movie (all up to the Kelvin is "canon" in both universes) and TOS. I think so far they are doing a pretty good job, within the limits they have.
I personally had no problem with the actress. Describing her as "poor" might be a critic, but not a helpful one. In what way you found her "poor"? An unhelpful critic do make one appear negative.
Robert Burnett has often stated that he liked the first JJ movie, but does not like the second one - because of the story, not because of the looks! I think a lot of Trek fans feel the same (at least I do). Axanar is trying the impossible here - trying to bridge the gap between the influences of the first JJ movie (all up to the Kelvin is "canon" in both universes) and TOS. I think so far they are doing a pretty good job, within the limits they have.
@ Northstar.
You have a point.
First-
Perhaps my comments about Axanar's producers are out of date (Pre-Burnett?).
In an IO9 article from July, I do think Burnett did take a swipe and the Big E being built on Earth, (gravity well) but otherwise, perhaps (AKAIK) they've toned down the negative stuff both about JJ Trek and other productions. Perhaps the producers in general are less defensive here, and elsewhere. I hope so.
Second-
As to Kim Fitzgerald's portrayal of T'Lar (Not sure if the character is an homage to character from the Strangers from the Sky novel) I felt that she was just an American woman dressed and made up as Vulcan. Watch her face carefully- there is emotion there- frustration, consternation, etc. I also have some trouble with her cadence. I am not nitpicking. Go back to TOS and listen the style of Vulcan intonation/enunciation. Contrast it with how McCoy and Kirk speak with one another. Perhaps in Amok Time some of it was over the top formal (Thees, and thous and so forth) but there was more- There was an established Vulcan speech pattern- Pauses for the exact word, an absence of contractions, etcetera. There was an economy of speech as well- nothing was said that didn't need to be said. This is a deliberate people.
In general, for the past 10-15 years, I've had issues with many of the Vulcans we've seen since Enterprise. (Yes I know there was some (re)growing the Vulcans had to do to get back to Surak's teachings) But regarding Axanar specifically, we are now much closer to the Sarek brand of Vulcan. (Now that's a Vulcan!) So lets hear it.
I choose to ignore the Robert Foxworth over the top performance in ENT. I half expected him to rip off his ear appliances and order an attack on the Defiant. No one on Vulcan should have been fooled - at all. Are the Vulcans stupid? WTF Manny Coto?
To continue, recently, few (fan films and pro) have been able to get these folks portraying Vulcans to really pull it all the way back- So, given Prelude (which I very much liked!) I had hoped that we would see the various races act as they once did (near TOS and beyond)
Examples for the specific "Vulcan style" include Nimoy, Lenard and Russ for the men, Arlene Martel and Celia Lovsky for the women. On the fan side, Todd Haberkorn of Star Trek Continues does a marvelous job. He carries himself like a Vulcan, and sounds like a Vulcan- the manner, the speech pattern are each spot on. As to the professional production (Enterprise) when he was written more in keeping with the Vulcans we know, Graham pulled it off as well.
Perhaps it comes down to direction- I don't know.
So let me be more both more clear and diplomatic-
As seen (and directed here) Kim Fitzgerald's T'Lar didn't seem Vulcan to me, not that she isn't a good actress, and hasn't done good work elsewhere.
You have a point.
First-
Perhaps my comments about Axanar's producers are out of date (Pre-Burnett?).
In an IO9 article from July, I do think Burnett did take a swipe and the Big E being built on Earth, (gravity well) but otherwise, perhaps (AKAIK) they've toned down the negative stuff both about JJ Trek and other productions. Perhaps the producers in general are less defensive here, and elsewhere. I hope so.
Second-
As to Kim Fitzgerald's portrayal of T'Lar (Not sure if the character is an homage to character from the Strangers from the Sky novel) I felt that she was just an American woman dressed and made up as Vulcan. Watch her face carefully- there is emotion there- frustration, consternation, etc. I also have some trouble with her cadence. I am not nitpicking. Go back to TOS and listen the style of Vulcan intonation/enunciation. Contrast it with how McCoy and Kirk speak with one another. Perhaps in Amok Time some of it was over the top formal (Thees, and thous and so forth) but there was more- There was an established Vulcan speech pattern- Pauses for the exact word, an absence of contractions, etcetera. There was an economy of speech as well- nothing was said that didn't need to be said. This is a deliberate people.
In general, for the past 10-15 years, I've had issues with many of the Vulcans we've seen since Enterprise. (Yes I know there was some (re)growing the Vulcans had to do to get back to Surak's teachings) But regarding Axanar specifically, we are now much closer to the Sarek brand of Vulcan. (Now that's a Vulcan!) So lets hear it.
I choose to ignore the Robert Foxworth over the top performance in ENT. I half expected him to rip off his ear appliances and order an attack on the Defiant. No one on Vulcan should have been fooled - at all. Are the Vulcans stupid? WTF Manny Coto?
To continue, recently, few (fan films and pro) have been able to get these folks portraying Vulcans to really pull it all the way back- So, given Prelude (which I very much liked!) I had hoped that we would see the various races act as they once did (near TOS and beyond)
Examples for the specific "Vulcan style" include Nimoy, Lenard and Russ for the men, Arlene Martel and Celia Lovsky for the women. On the fan side, Todd Haberkorn of Star Trek Continues does a marvelous job. He carries himself like a Vulcan, and sounds like a Vulcan- the manner, the speech pattern are each spot on. As to the professional production (Enterprise) when he was written more in keeping with the Vulcans we know, Graham pulled it off as well.
Perhaps it comes down to direction- I don't know.
So let me be more both more clear and diplomatic-
As seen (and directed here) Kim Fitzgerald's T'Lar didn't seem Vulcan to me, not that she isn't a good actress, and hasn't done good work elsewhere.
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To be honest, Tim Russ sounded like a vulcan in Starship Mine and Generations, when in both cases his character was human.
Thanks CM - now that is constuctive criticism. I didn´t have any problems with the actress, I guess not all Vulcans deliver their lines in the way you described. But it is something that the director can think about and change if he sees your point (ok, not for this scene, but I suppose there will be other scenes involving aliens).
I need to take issue with the notion that Vulcans do not use contractions. That is not the case at all. Sarek, in "Journey to Babel" does not say "I would prefer another guide, Captain." He says "I'd." Spock doesn't ask why he "did not" think of Orion easier, he says "didn't." Spock in "Amok Time" says "couldn't" and "don't" in talking to Chapel. Spock used contractions all the time.
There are exceptions to anything in TOS, but there is clearly an established pattern of Vulcans speaking more formally and deliberately. Specifically Spock as he is Sciency and stuff.
I don't want to fight. (or if Spock were speaking):
Sir, I do not know you, nor do I wish to fight you.
You're the writer, and free to write your characters and dialogue your way.
I'm just a fan who's overly protective of the TOS Dialogue/Pacing "Sound". There are Trek rhythms that one can hear and "feel"- kinda like how Scotty just senses how his engines are doing from the sound and feel of the deckplates.
Not that the Vulcans need to sound stilted (as my example above did) Nor should their speech be a caricature. There is a balance.
I so badly wanted to believe T'Pol (Enterprise) was a Vulcan- but even before she became drug addled, her speech pattern was at times too informal. Ditto some of the Vulcans stationed at Earth Embassy and P'Jem. T'Pol's mom? Same trouble - I was waiting for Deckard to pop up and start chasing her 'cause she was a replicant Vulcan.
There is a thread over on Reddit dedicated to this one issue.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DaystromIn.../why_dont_vulcans_use_contractions_more_often
I really appreciate all the effort that goes into these Fan Productions- And I'm glad there are folks like you out there willing to work your butt off to keep Trek alive.
Please write what makes for a great, compelling story and makes sense to your ear, not mine or anyone else's. I just felt I had to make the case.
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No problem. In future, I'm going to be mindful not to just lob blanket statements out there. So this was a good exercise.
To tidy things up, if you check out the You Tube comments for the Vulcan scene- an observation from "deadscene.com" described how T'Lar was portrayed the way I should have:
"...T'Lera [sic] comes off as more Romulan in personality to me than Vulcan given her facial expressions and emotional display. I hope Kim Fitzgerald can adopt greater reserve into the character, especially if she is to be someone Soval trusts..."
Who says every Vulcan is adept at masking their feelings. Her feeling showing could be because of confusion with how Soval was acting. She obviously agreed with the council, so she is being put in a difficult situation.
I see to an extent what CM1701 is saying about the "classic" Vulcan style and that T'Lera doesn't have it... but OTOH after rewatching the scene I'm not seeing all this emotional affect that he's talking about. She seems reasonably Vulcan to me, if not "classically" so; although there's a certain brittleness to her calm, it seems to me to be within the parameters of showing Vulcans as distinct characters with their own particular styles and flavours of emotional restraint. She's no Tim Russ, obviously. But it's not a performance I'd be tempted to call "poor" (albeit I wouldn't call it particularly stunning either, "adequate" is the word that comes to mind) and if anything it seems to me the character showing the most affect in that scene is Soval.
(Funnily enough I quite loathed Soval in ENT, but Graham brings a sense of gravitas and wisdom to him here -- and in Prelude too -- that makes him much easier to take. He has the feel of a latter-era Spock, in a way; a Vulcan who has grown beyond the worship of logic for its own sake and realizes there are things to learn outside his own planet's creed. He obviously is what makes the scene work as well as it does, T'Lera being sort of there to play straight to his wise-old-man dynamic.)
(Funnily enough I quite loathed Soval in ENT, but Graham brings a sense of gravitas and wisdom to him here -- and in Prelude too -- that makes him much easier to take. He has the feel of a latter-era Spock, in a way; a Vulcan who has grown beyond the worship of logic for its own sake and realizes there are things to learn outside his own planet's creed. He obviously is what makes the scene work as well as it does, T'Lera being sort of there to play straight to his wise-old-man dynamic.)
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