Why Voyager was a Disappointment

[Anwar]

Again, your theory about Scorpion is an interesting one, but nothing that is verifiable. The overall attitude that I can find is one of liking it, and even the producers found it to be an enjoyable episode.

Part One, maybe.

However, that does not mean that I must accept VOY as it occurred because the production staff chose a limited plot line. VOY does not get special consideration because of poor choices.

Like I said, series rushed into production before these flaws were detected. Compare how long they took putting DS9 together to Voyager's rush-job.

Unfortunately, it was TNG style storytelling, but without the characters that grounded that series.

This is why I say the show came at the wrong time. If they'd waited til after DS9 not only would they have been able to see the flaws in the premise and think of a more complete one, other shows with similar premises (LEXX, Farscape) would be on the air so they could show them as example to their Bosses as to what kind of show they wanted to make.

You may be right about the casting, and a smaller cast may have made a difference, though TNG and DS9 made do quite well with a larger cast, to the point that Rom got married.

To be totally honest, I think TNG struggled a bit with its Large Ensemble cast. But it was the experimental cast wherein they first tried the idea so I can understand.

DS9 only got their cast to work because of their big Galactic War storyline, and even then some of the cast were still unneeded (Dax).

Sorry, I can be pretty generous, and there are aspects of VOY that I enjoy, but there was more bad, than good, in my opinion. It just lacked a depth and consistency to be interesting, in my opinion.

And I can agree with this.

 

[fireproof78]

Again, your theory about Scorpion is an interesting one, but nothing that is verifiable. The overall attitude that I can find is one of liking it, and even the producers found it to be an enjoyable episode.

Part One, maybe.

However, that does not mean that I must accept VOY as it occurred because the production staff chose a limited plot line. VOY does not get special consideration because of poor choices.

Like I said, series rushed into production before these flaws were detected. Compare how long they took putting DS9 together to Voyager's rush-job.



This is why I say the show came at the wrong time. If they'd waited til after DS9 not only would they have been able to see the flaws in the premise and think of a more complete one, other shows with similar premises (LEXX, Farscape) would be on the air so they could show them as example to their Bosses as to what kind of show they wanted to make.

You may be right about the casting, and a smaller cast may have made a difference, though TNG and DS9 made do quite well with a larger cast, to the point that Rom got married.

To be totally honest, I think TNG struggled a bit with its Large Ensemble cast. But it was the experimental cast wherein they first tried the idea so I can understand.

DS9 only got their cast to work because of their big Galactic War storyline, and even then some of the cast were still unneeded (Dax).

Sorry, I can be pretty generous, and there are aspects of VOY that I enjoy, but there was more bad, than good, in my opinion. It just lacked a depth and consistency to be interesting, in my opinion.

And I can agree with this.

if you have the right storyline, you can make characters work.

As I said, the fact that VOY had problems does not mean that myself, or anyone else, should cut VOY some slack. I mean, despite the flaws, VOY set itself up as different from its predecessors. It managed some limited success, especially with characters like the Doctor and Seven (later on), but it just lacked consistency.

So, I don't think that the audience was unreasonable or hostile towards VOY or started out wanting to hate it. I think that VOY never followed through with what was stated or expected, and I think it learned from its mistakes to little to late. None of this is the fault of anyone but the producers and creative staff.

 

[drmick]

In answer to the OP, while I agree with many of the points in that post, I doubt think they are the reason why Voyager was poor, they just represent sticks to bash it with.

What's funny about this thread is that I'm getting cravings to go back and watch the good episodes! Is there a list anywhere of best episodes, or even better, a poll that ranks them?

Without googling, the only ones that stand out in my head are Scorpion, Message in a Bottle, the one with Captain Geordie (?Timeless) and Unimatrix Zero One (?accuracy of title)!

EDIT: a quick google and I will add Equinox. Honestly didn't care for any of the rest and I checked 5 top ten lists comprising at least 25 episodes. That's a shocking return from 7 seasons of Trek.

 

[wulfio]

@ OP I liked 7's cat suit. :\

 

[Anwar]

if you have the right storyline, you can make characters work.

If this is in response to the size of the cast...going over things it seems in nearly EVERY "Lost Ship" show worth remembering of the last 40 years they all had smaller casts as well (Lexx, Farscape) and the ones with larger casts (Stargate Universe, NuBSG) fell apart much faster.

 

[Lynx]

As for bad SF-series, I just have to write one name:

Stargate Universe

That show was so bad that it was almost funny.

Even the worst Voyager episodes (except a certain one in season 6 which should never have been made) are much better than any episode of Stargate Universe.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Season 2 SG:U was a big improvement.

 

[wulfio]

As for bad SF-series, I just have to write one name:

Stargate Universe

That show was so bad that it was almost funny.

Even the worst Voyager episodes (except a certain one in season 6 which should never have been made) are much better than any episode of Stargate Universe.

I thought SGU had its moments. The problem with it was that it relied too heavily on the typical drama tv tropes that tries to elicit emotional responses from the audience; Too much melodrama and music montages.

I quite enjoyed the main plot. I think the tone they were going for was a nice change of pace for the franchise, however their execution was cookie cutter. And I think Carlyle is a good actor. Some of the sub plots were the same sort of drivel we see in every drama show out now though.

That being said, while Voyager didn't have those issues, it had many others. And aside from being Star Trek, from a quality standpoint, for me, it's no better or worse.

 

[MacLeod]

I didn't mind SG:U (for the most part)but I think having Carlyle helped it.

 

[Lynx]

Stargate Universe had a great premise but the characters were horrible.

What annoyed me most was the constant bickering. They spent the three-four first episodes just arguing and whining. Everytime I read some comments about possible Starfleet-Maquis tension on Voyager I actually bles Braga and his gang for not turning Voyager into the depressive mess Stargate Univerese became.

A relative of mine who's also an SF-fan admitted that he actually fell asleep on two occasions while watching the show. That made me start watching it again after not watching it for three episodes because it became a constant joke between me and my relative. "Oh, it's Saturday again and our favorites will see that we don't stay up too long!"

Rush was the only character I liked, mainly because of Carlyle who is a great actor. I must admit that he added another fun aspect for me because he looks like a dead ringer to a crazy person I worked with a couple of years ago and everytime he's some weird character in some movie or series, he reminds me of that person.

The only characters I liked in the series were those pale blue aliens who showed up in the middle of season 1. They added some action to the series which it had been nothing of up to that. Sadly, we didn't see so much of them in coming episodes.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

When the aliens showed up I was like YES FINALLY some real science fiction. But then they never came back?

What bugged me, besides the incredibly stupid office bitch fights on a starship, was the bedding. There were many, many rooms all with beds and covers and sheets and quilts unneeded but did you ever see anyone wearing that stuff? NO. Freaking Eli wore the same shirt for 2 years. NO one made any use of all that fabric and whipped up some other clothes. And it certainly wasn't because they were too busy to do it, half of them didn't even have anything much to do.

 

[fireproof78]

if you have the right storyline, you can make characters work.

If this is in response to the size of the cast...going over things it seems in nearly EVERY "Lost Ship" show worth remembering of the last 40 years they all had smaller casts as well (Lexx, Farscape) and the ones with larger casts (Stargate Universe, NuBSG) fell apart much faster.

Farscape started out with 5, with a villain who eventually became a main character, plus another villain, and added more people on as the show went on.

Stargate Atlantis as deserves honorable mention as a spin off of the "Lost Ship" story, as they were disconnected from the Milky Way galaxy and had to make discoveries on their own. They also started out with 5 main characters, and added on more. It's completely doable.

Yes, some characters started out in smaller roles, and slowly made their way in to the bigger stories. That is how a story grows and develops with the characters. That is what can happen when you have a storyline that is developed and the followed through on.

The point is, is that it is doable, completely doable, and VOY had the added bonus of being from a known franchise, and create characters with a known back story. Yes, the DQ was unknown, but that doesn't mean that all your characters have to be a question mark.

Again, my point is very simple. VOY had some things against, had a lot going for it, and did little with it. That is disappointing for myself, and seems to be echoed by others. None of this translates in to a conspiracy on the part of the viewing audience to "hate" VOY.

 

[Anwar]

Farscape started out with 5, with a villain who eventually became a main character, plus another villain, and added more people on as the show went on.

They also dropped characters too, to keep the cast from getting too big. They dropped Stark as soon as they picked him up, and he was only a real crewmember in S3. They killed Crais to make room for Scorpius, dropped Zhann to make room for Jool. Dropped Jool for Sikozu, then dropped Sikozu for Noranti, etc.

They never really tried to keep a big cast.

Stargate Atlantis as deserves honorable mention as a spin off of the "Lost Ship" story, as they were disconnected from the Milky Way galaxy and had to make discoveries on their own. They also started out with 5 main characters, and added on more. It's completely doable.

Atlantis dropped the "Lost" thing after S1.

That is what can happen when you have a storyline that is developed and the followed through on.

A workable, sustainable storyline. Yes. But that's not "Lost Ship".

Yes, the DQ was unknown, but that doesn't mean that all your characters have to be a question mark.

Well...it kind of does.

Again, my point is very simple. VOY had some things against, had a lot going for it, and did little with it. That is disappointing for myself, and seems to be echoed by others.

And to an extent, I can agree with you.

 

[fireproof78]

Farscape started out with 5, with a villain who eventually became a main character, plus another villain, and added more people on as the show went on.

They also dropped characters too, to keep the cast from getting too big. They dropped Stark as soon as they picked him up, and he was only a real crewmember in S3. They killed Crais to make room for Scorpius, dropped Zhann to make room for Jool. Dropped Jool for Sikozu, then dropped Sikozu for Noranti, etc.

They never really tried to keep a big cast.

Stargate Atlantis as deserves honorable mention as a spin off of the "Lost Ship" story, as they were disconnected from the Milky Way galaxy and had to make discoveries on their own. They also started out with 5 main characters, and added on more. It's completely doable.

Atlantis dropped the "Lost" thing after S1.



A workable, sustainable storyline. Yes. But that's not "Lost Ship".

Yes, the DQ was unknown, but that doesn't mean that all your characters have to be a question mark.

Well...it kind of does.

Again, my point is very simple. VOY had some things against, had a lot going for it, and did little with it. That is disappointing for myself, and seems to be echoed by others.

And to an extent, I can agree with you.

Um, I'm afraid you have your Farscape history backwards. Stark was dropped fairly quickly, but that show could only handle so many babbling madmen. However, both Scorpious and Crais were kept on to the beginning of Season 3. Crais became an ally, and the crew was split on to Talyn and Moya for a time too, though that did help keep the crew size down from story to story. But, at the peak they had two Crichtons, Aeryn, Rygel, Dargo, Jool, Sikozu, Crais, Stark and Chiana. I'm not saying it was sustainable, but neither did it feel overcrowded. They made it work.

Lost Ship is a workable storyline as a foundation, and then you move on. In that time period, you get to know the characters, you develop backstories for those you don't know about, and the area that you are exploring. If you can't stay in the same area for *insert reason here* then you create a through line beyond the "we have to get home" plot. That is where the mysteries of the DQ come in to play.

In my opinion, Voyager and crew should not have discovered the Caretaker's Array right away, but had they mystery of what it was, and if it could take them back. Also, the Maquis and Starfleet integration could have been a little more bumpy, rather than a token couple of episodes. No, it doesn't last long, but it should not be a perfect blending either.

Finally, no matter what problems VOY had, no one conspired against it. Whoever was tuning in to watch it did not sit there wishing to hate it, and plotting VOY's eventual demise. 7 years is a long, and I mean long, in terms of television run time. They had plenty of time to figure something out that would be more worthwhile.

 

[SPCTRE]

THE AUDIENCE

THE AUDIENCE

THE AUDIENCE

 

[Lynx]

if you have the right storyline, you can make characters work.

If this is in response to the size of the cast...going over things it seems in nearly EVERY "Lost Ship" show worth remembering of the last 40 years they all had smaller casts as well (Lexx, Farscape) and the ones with larger casts (Stargate Universe, NuBSG) fell apart much faster.

Farscape started out with 5, with a villain who eventually became a main character, plus another villain, and added more people on as the show went on.

Stargate Atlantis as deserves honorable mention as a spin off of the "Lost Ship" story, as they were disconnected from the Milky Way galaxy and had to make discoveries on their own. They also started out with 5 main characters, and added on more. It's completely doable.

Yes, some characters started out in smaller roles, and slowly made their way in to the bigger stories. That is how a story grows and develops with the characters. That is what can happen when you have a storyline that is developed and the followed through on.

The point is, is that it is doable, completely doable, and VOY had the added bonus of being from a known franchise, and create characters with a known back story. Yes, the DQ was unknown, but that doesn't mean that all your characters have to be a question mark.

Again, my point is very simple. VOY had some things against, had a lot going for it, and did little with it. That is disappointing for myself, and seems to be echoed by others. None of this translates in to a conspiracy on the part of the viewing audience to "hate" VOY.

Fascape was OK and I really like Stargate Atlantis.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I love Atlantis. It was my first Stargate. After watching all of SG:1 I have to say SG:1 is a vastly superior show but all my affections go to Atlantis. I love the setting, Rodney, the isolation, the villains, the twists, all the characters (except Elizabeth who I hate, thank god she got replaced with the wonderful Picardo) everything.

 

[Lynx]

Atlantis had great characters and great villains as well: The Wraith!

And Mr Woolsley is an acestor to Lewis Zimmerman!

Honestly, I like Elizabeth too.

And I also like SG 1. When I started to watch it, it took some time for me to adjust from the Trek world to the Stargate and that the story took place in the 20th century. But I started to like it.

After the dissapointment with certain events in Voyager and with Enterprise, SG1 and Atlantis became sort of an escape zone for me.

A pity that they ruined everything with Stargate Universe. It actually annoys me that they scrapped the idea of an Atlantis movie just to come up with Stargate Universe.

 

[Anwar]

I met Torri Higginson last week at the Stan Lee Comikaze, nice lady. I decided to ask her about TekWar instead of Stargate though.

I told Christopher Judge he was a great Magneto as well.

Um, I'm afraid you have your Farscape history backwards. Stark was dropped fairly quickly, but that show could only handle so many babbling madmen. However, both Scorpious and Crais were kept on to the beginning of Season 3. Crais became an ally, and the crew was split on to Talyn and Moya for a time too, though that did help keep the crew size down from story to story. But, at the peak they had two Crichtons, Aeryn, Rygel, Dargo, Jool, Sikozu, Crais, Stark and Chiana. I'm not saying it was sustainable, but neither did it feel overcrowded. They made it work.

I'm talking about the crew of Moya more than the cast of the show in its entirety. And like you said they even split them into two ships to keep the crews small and the stories easier to write.

Lost Ship is a workable storyline as a foundation, and then you move on. In that time period, you get to know the characters, you develop backstories for those you don't know about, and the area that you are exploring. If you can't stay in the same area for *insert reason here* then you create a through line beyond the "we have to get home" plot. That is where the mysteries of the DQ come in to play.

The problem was that the audience wouldn't even tolerate them staying in one area for more than one episode. You need to spend time in an area to flesh it out.

In my opinion, Voyager and crew should not have discovered the Caretaker's Array right away, but had they mystery of what it was, and if it could take them back. Also, the Maquis and Starfleet integration could have been a little more bumpy, rather than a token couple of episodes. No, it doesn't last long, but it should not be a perfect blending either.

The easiest way out would be just to explain it was the Caretaker's own power boosted by the Array that brought them there, and that he was just too weak to send them back. IE, going home was NEVER an option.

When he dies, he leaves the Array on AI mode to protect the Ocampa and drive off hostiles (The Kazon) and unfortunately it sees VOY as one too. Then next story is now them hiding on Ocampa on a landed ship trying to find a way to evade surviving Kazon occupation forces and get back to the Array to get it to stop trying to kill them (it won't attack until VOY powers back up). They get the Ocampa to help them so the Array now recognizes them as friendlies.

The Array becomes their makeshift HQ while VOY goes out on missions to explore the area and return until they have to leave for good.

That's enough story for maybe the first season.

 

[fireproof78]

I met Torri Higginson last week at the Stan Lee Comikaze, nice lady. I decided to ask her about TekWar instead of Stargate though.

I told Christopher Judge he was a great Magneto as well.

Um, I'm afraid you have your Farscape history backwards. Stark was dropped fairly quickly, but that show could only handle so many babbling madmen. However, both Scorpious and Crais were kept on to the beginning of Season 3. Crais became an ally, and the crew was split on to Talyn and Moya for a time too, though that did help keep the crew size down from story to story. But, at the peak they had two Crichtons, Aeryn, Rygel, Dargo, Jool, Sikozu, Crais, Stark and Chiana. I'm not saying it was sustainable, but neither did it feel overcrowded. They made it work.

I'm talking about the crew of Moya more than the cast of the show in its entirety. And like you said they even split them into two ships to keep the crews small and the stories easier to write.

Lost Ship is a workable storyline as a foundation, and then you move on. In that time period, you get to know the characters, you develop backstories for those you don't know about, and the area that you are exploring. If you can't stay in the same area for *insert reason here* then you create a through line beyond the "we have to get home" plot. That is where the mysteries of the DQ come in to play.

The problem was that the audience wouldn't even tolerate them staying in one area for more than one episode. You need to spend time in an area to flesh it out.

In my opinion, Voyager and crew should not have discovered the Caretaker's Array right away, but had they mystery of what it was, and if it could take them back. Also, the Maquis and Starfleet integration could have been a little more bumpy, rather than a token couple of episodes. No, it doesn't last long, but it should not be a perfect blending either.

The easiest way out would be just to explain it was the Caretaker's own power boosted by the Array that brought them there, and that he was just too weak to send them back. IE, going home was NEVER an option.

When he dies, he leaves the Array on AI mode to protect the Ocampa and drive off hostiles (The Kazon) and unfortunately it sees VOY as one too. Then next story is now them hiding on Ocampa on a landed ship trying to find a way to evade surviving Kazon occupation forces and get back to the Array to get it to stop trying to kill them (it won't attack until VOY powers back up). They get the Ocampa to help them so the Array now recognizes them as friendlies.

The Array becomes their makeshift HQ while VOY goes out on missions to explore the area and return until they have to leave for good.

That's enough story for maybe the first season.

See, right there, you wrote a better first season than VOY actually had. Now, imagine being paid to be that creative. Also, it makes sense and allows for more character growth.

However, as much as it gets repeated, I have yet to find evidence for or any other review indicating, that the audience panned the series for the stated reasons. Sorry, I'm still not buying it. Audience disinterest in VOY seems to relate more to lack of characterization, and other factors, as well as the competition that VOY faced. The competition changed but VOY did not change its formula.

As for Farscape, it started out small-ish, but added new characters and kept some on, providing a more diverse crew. Crais was not killed off in favor of Scorpious, and Crais actually became an ally for part of season 2. All the characters were not there all of the time, certainly, but that doesn't mean that the cast did not get larger depending on the needs of the story. How is that for working secondaries in?