Why Voyager was a Disappointment

[Anwar]

What constraints do people believe VOY had?

1) They could never stay in one general area for more than one episode without the audience getting PO'ed.

2) They couldn't make any allies or gain supporting characters from the locale which would help flesh out the area.

Essentially...

They're in a pathetic scout ship a kick in the shins would blow up, they're slower and weaker than everyone else. They can't make allies or build up a power base, they can't have recurring external aliens or stay in one place for more than one episode, and everyone wants to kill them.

They can't do any exploration missions, they can't get involved in any epic space adventures, they can't have external plotlines with new aliens, they can't introduce any recurring external characters, the internal conflict wasn't interesting enough to last more than one season, they can't get their hands on alien technology that can generate new plots...

Basically, given their premise, all they could do is just boring crap about fixing the hull, mining asteroids, growing food and running away from absolutely everything without even trying to fight back.

Anytime they tried to do anything new with what little they had (Scorpion, the Void, even Living Witness) all they got was criticism.

 

[fireproof78]

What constraints do people believe VOY had?

1) They could never stay in one general area for more than one episode without the audience getting PO'ed.

2) They couldn't make any allies or gain supporting characters from the locale which would help flesh out the area.

Essentially...

They're in a pathetic scout ship a kick in the shins would blow up, they're slower and weaker than everyone else. They can't make allies or build up a power base, they can't have recurring external aliens or stay in one place for more than one episode, and everyone wants to kill them.

They can't do any exploration missions, they can't get involved in any epic space adventures, they can't have external plotlines with new aliens, they can't introduce any recurring external characters, the internal conflict wasn't interesting enough to last more than one season, they can't get their hands on alien technology that can generate new plots...

Basically, given their premise, all they could do is just boring crap about fixing the hull, mining asteroids, growing food and running away from absolutely everything without even trying to fight back.

Anytime they tried to do anything new with what little they had (Scorpion, the Void, even Living Witness) all they got was criticism.

I keep hearing that about Scorpion, but can't find it. All reviews I have read have been generally positive, with some issue taken with the ending or the pat way in which the conflict between Janeway and Chakotay was resolved.

Beyond that, Scorpion seems to be a highly rated episode, at least in a quick look at several sources

 

[MacLeod]

What constraints do people believe VOY had?

1) They could never stay in one general area for more than one episode without the audience getting PO'ed.

2) They couldn't make any allies or gain supporting characters from the locale which would help flesh out the area.

Essentially...

They're in a pathetic scout ship a kick in the shins would blow up, they're slower and weaker than everyone else. They can't make allies or build up a power base, they can't have recurring external aliens or stay in one place for more than one episode, and everyone wants to kill them.

They can't do any exploration missions, they can't get involved in any epic space adventures, they can't have external plotlines with new aliens, they can't introduce any recurring external characters, the internal conflict wasn't interesting enough to last more than one season, they can't get their hands on alien technology that can generate new plots...

Basically, given their premise, all they could do is just boring crap about fixing the hull, mining asteroids, growing food and running away from absolutely everything without even trying to fight back.

Anytime they tried to do anything new with what little they had (Scorpion, the Void, even Living Witness) all they got was criticism.

Why couldn't they form alliances, from an in universe point of view?


Sure the nature of the show has them travelling to Earth, limiting how much time they could spend within in one area, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be done it's all in the execution.

Look at it this way the UFP spans 8000ly (FC), Borg space span some 9500ly (VOY: "The Gift" when Kes threw the ship through Borg space). So shouldn't there have been times when they would be travelling through a region of space over a period of several episodes when they were in a region of space controlled by the same people or group of people. If you look at DSN we had The Dominion mentioned in "Rules of Aquistion" in what was an almost throw away line. There is no reason why VOY couldn't have done something similar name dropped a power into an episode and have this power as a recurring theme for a half season. Sometimes they might be friendly and worth seeking out other times try to avoid being detected or invade being found. There is plenty they could have done.

Or what about locals mentioning a possible stable wormhole in one episode and a few episodes later they arrive at the location of this possible wormhole, is it a trap, an actual wormhole or something else.

So much opportunity to realise what the DQ is like, how is it different from the AQ, what are the politics of the region like etc.. But rather than do that they basically created TNG-lite.

Do some worlds want to help VOY or out of fear of reprisals from whomever refuse to help.

 

[Anwar]

Why couldn't they form alliances, from an in universe point of view?

Anytime they did have any alliances with any aliens whatsoever (The Borg, those random aliens in YOH, other Talaxians, etc) the audience complained they were having too much of an impact on the DQ for one tiny scout ship.

So they can't get allies and they can't do anything cool or else they're "too important".

Nevermind Kirk and Picard did awesome Galaxy-shaping stuff on their own and no one cared.

Look at it this way the UFP spans 8000ly (FC), Borg space span some 9500ly (VOY: "The Gift" when Kes threw the ship through Borg space). So shouldn't there have been times when they would be travelling through a region of space over a period of several episodes when they were in a region of space controlled by the same people or group of people.

There were, like with the Kazon and Vidiians and Hirogen. And in each of those cases the audience complains the aliens stuck around too long.

If you look at DSN we had The Dominion mentioned in "Rules of Aquistion" in what was an almost throw away line. There is no reason why VOY couldn't have done something similar name dropped a power into an episode and have this power as a recurring theme for a half season. Sometimes they might be friendly and worth seeking out other times try to avoid being detected or invade being found. There is plenty they could have done.

Before you could get to ANY of that, the audience would already be PO'ed they were in the same area for more than one episode.

VOY's audience had a "One strike you're out" policy. Aliens couldn't just show up for a little while, they had to only show up ONCE or otherwise it was "too long".

So much opportunity to realise what the DQ is like, how is it different from the AQ, what are the politics of the region like etc.. But rather than do that they basically created TNG-lite.

Do some worlds want to help VOY or out of fear of reprisals from whomever refuse to help.

Again, that would take time. Time they didn't have.

 

[Orphalesion]

I agree that Seven was a wasted opportunity and they shoudl have given her more gradual and fluid character development, instead of turning her into what basically amounted to a Vulcan with "irrelevant" and "efficient" in place of "logical".

But why I think Voyager was bad:

1) The characters. I just wanted to grab one of them by the ankles and beat the others senseless with him/her. Such a conglomeration of egotistical jerks on one ship!

2) They didn't own up to the premise of the lone spaceship stranded in uncharted "waters". So we tell the audience (but don't show it) that our crew is running low on energy for the replicators, but they will never run out of food anyway, especially since one colorful alien can cook enough for everybody 24/7. Also using the Holodeck is a-ok!

3) Yeah....they lowered the threat level of the Borg significantly....

 

[MacLeod]

Why couldn't they form alliances, from an in universe point of view?

Anytime they did have any alliances with any aliens whatsoever (The Borg, those random aliens in YOH, other Talaxians, etc) the audience complained they were having too much of an impact on the DQ for one tiny scout ship.

So they can't get allies and they can't do anything cool or else they're "too important".

Nevermind Kirk and Picard did awesome Galaxy-shaping stuff on their own and no one cared.

Look at it this way the UFP spans 8000ly (FC), Borg space span some 9500ly (VOY: "The Gift" when Kes threw the ship through Borg space). So shouldn't there have been times when they would be travelling through a region of space over a period of several episodes when they were in a region of space controlled by the same people or group of people.

There were, like with the Kazon and Vidiians and Hirogen. And in each of those cases the audience complains the aliens stuck around too long.

If you look at DSN we had The Dominion mentioned in "Rules of Aquistion" in what was an almost throw away line. There is no reason why VOY couldn't have done something similar name dropped a power into an episode and have this power as a recurring theme for a half season. Sometimes they might be friendly and worth seeking out other times try to avoid being detected or invade being found. There is plenty they could have done.

Before you could get to ANY of that, the audience would already be PO'ed they were in the same area for more than one episode.

VOY's audience had a "One strike you're out" policy. Aliens couldn't just show up for a little while, they had to only show up ONCE or otherwise it was "too long".

So much opportunity to realise what the DQ is like, how is it different from the AQ, what are the politics of the region like etc.. But rather than do that they basically created TNG-lite.

Do some worlds want to help VOY or out of fear of reprisals from whomever refuse to help.

Again, that would take time. Time they didn't have.

The Vidiians appeared in what a half dozen episodes, and in their case with them searching for a cure from the Phage it could be justified as to why we kept seeing as their search for a cure took them deep and deeper into space from their homeworld. As for the Kazon, they appeared from the start of S1 to the end of S2 wih means a span of some 2000ly with seemed somewhat unrealestiuc, they should have been left behind by the end of S1 perhaps a few episodes into S2.


Where is the evidence that the "audiance" had a one strike policy?

As for time why didn't they have time? By name dropping a threat that's coming your way i.e. like DSN did with the Dominion you provide a hook for the audiance, what is this threat, what danger does it pose. And you unravel that mystery over the course of several episodes or a season. You can expand on that somewhat similar to what VOY did with the NW passage by learning that they avoid a articular region of space is it because of some natural occurance or a more dangerous foe, or a stronger friendly race who they aren't strong enough to attack. There was plenty of stuff they could have done.

Isn't that what VOY gets critisied for it's episodic format when it could and should have been more serialised? in TNG we often dealt with UFP members we didn't need to know much about the region as we knew it was UFP or it was in the DMZ or bordered with Klingon space etc... They never really developed that when it came to the DQ it just seemed as if it was a series of indpendant planets one after the other with no real sense of the galactic politics that could be at work in the region and what impact VOY could have had on them. Sure there wasa little at the start with the Kazon.

 

[Anwar]

The Vidiians appeared in what a half dozen episodes, and in their case with them searching for a cure from the Phage it could be justified as to why we kept seeing as their search for a cure took them deep and deeper into space from their homeworld.

And the audience was already sick of them after "Phage".

As for the Kazon, they appeared from the start of S1 to the end of S2 wih means a span of some 2000ly with seemed somewhat unrealestiuc, they should have been left behind by the end of S1 perhaps a few episodes into S2.

You just said that they should've run into an enemy that spanned thousands of LY.

Where is the evidence that the "audiance" had a one strike policy?

How they reacted to anything the show did. Ever.

Seriously, TNG's "Shades of Grey" got better reviews than "Living Witness" did. That says it all.

As for time why didn't they have time? By name dropping a threat that's coming your way i.e. like DSN did with the Dominion you provide a hook for the audiance, what is this threat, what danger does it pose. And you unravel that mystery over the course of several episodes or a season.

They slowly built up the intro to the Borg and still no one liked it. One strike you're out.

They foreshadowed the Female Caretaker and no one liked it when she showed up. One strike you're out.

They foreshadowed the Krenim and still no one cared. One strike you're out.

Seriously, with an audience like that there's no point in trying hard. Even if they stretched out the intro to some enemy over a season I guarantee the audience would've still disliked them, and they'd also think it was a waste they spent many episode leading up to them.

Stretch "Scorpion" into some big stupid 100 part story and the audience will still hate it.

They never really developed that when it came to the DQ it just seemed as if it was a series of indpendant planets one after the other with no real sense of the galactic politics that could be at work in the region and what impact VOY could have had on them. Sure there wasa little at the start with the Kazon.

The failure with the Kazon was enough to make them give up on the entire concept of bothering to establish a greater DQ set-up. They knew by then it was pointless and they'd get nothing but more panning for their efforts.. One strike you're out.

 

[fireproof78]

The Vidiians appeared in what a half dozen episodes, and in their case with them searching for a cure from the Phage it could be justified as to why we kept seeing as their search for a cure took them deep and deeper into space from their homeworld.

And the audience was already sick of them after "Phage".

As for the Kazon, they appeared from the start of S1 to the end of S2 wih means a span of some 2000ly with seemed somewhat unrealestiuc, they should have been left behind by the end of S1 perhaps a few episodes into S2.

You just said that they should've run into an enemy that spanned thousands of LY.

How they reacted to anything the show did. Ever.

Seriously, TNG's "Shades of Grey" got better reviews than "Living Witness" did. That says it all.

As for time why didn't they have time? By name dropping a threat that's coming your way i.e. like DSN did with the Dominion you provide a hook for the audiance, what is this threat, what danger does it pose. And you unravel that mystery over the course of several episodes or a season.

They slowly built up the intro to the Borg and still no one liked it. One strike you're out.

They foreshadowed the Female Caretaker and no one liked it when she showed up. One strike you're out.

They foreshadowed the Krenim and still no one cared. One strike you're out.

Seriously, with an audience like that there's no point in trying hard. Even if they stretched out the intro to some enemy over a season I guarantee the audience would've still disliked them, and they'd also think it was a waste they spent many episode leading up to them.

Stretch "Scorpion" into some big stupid 100 part story and the audience will still hate it.

They never really developed that when it came to the DQ it just seemed as if it was a series of indpendant planets one after the other with no real sense of the galactic politics that could be at work in the region and what impact VOY could have had on them. Sure there wasa little at the start with the Kazon.

The failure with the Kazon was enough to make them give up on the entire concept of bothering to establish a greater DQ set-up. They knew by then it was pointless and they'd get nothing but more panning for their efforts.. One strike you're out.

I'm wondering what ratings these are that are being cited

Both Living Witness and Scorpion were highly rated by those sites I visited, or listed as being in the Top 10 VOY episodes.

I think the creative staff gave up too early and too easily, if they allowed (which I don't believe) an "audience" (again, still waiting for a definition of that term, as my portion of the viewing audience, including myself, brother, sister's friend and family, and several close friends, were pretty positive about VOY during its run) the ability to govern VOY's writing staff's decisions. Pretty amazing power, if you ask me

 

[MacLeod]

Even if we accept "the audiance" would have panned their efforts we are talking professional writers here they should know that sometimes people will like what they have done and other tmes they won't like what they have done, i.e not a reason to stop trying.

I don't remember much panning of the Borg corpse they discovered forshadowing that they were coming upto Borg space. Once again isn't it more a failure in the execution rather than the concept that is at fault?

As for "Shades of Grey" getting better reviews that "Living Witness" can't say I've ever come across even a single review that supports that claim. Also wasn't "Year of Hell" generally well received?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Panning?

I was panning for shit with my underpants when I saw that Borg corpse.

I waddled away with a small fortune.

 

[Lance]

In my opinion there's a very real degree of retroactive analysis that goes on with VOY.

That's not to say the criticisms are unjustified. But in my experience they are retroactive criticisms.

My memory of the contemporaneous accounts was that, while it never saw TNG style levels of popularity, it was generally spoken well of at the time of broadcast. Indeed, I remember a lot of reaction at the time swayed positively towards it, as opposed to a more muted general reaction to DS9 -- a situation which has virtually reversed itself with the passage of time, as people have come to re-evaluate DS9 positively and VOY negatively, after-the-fact.

And before anyone piles on top of me for blaspheming DS9 (as some already have in this thread), I shall point out that I'm not making a comment on the relative merits of both shows, but just trying to make an observation of my memory of how they were each received by the press/audiences at the time.

My theory is that many people came to re-evaluate VOY poorly in light of their reactions to how it ended. I'd say even those of us who are dyed-in-the-wool VOY fans would admit to a certain disappointment in the finale, "Endgame", and some of that negativity may have leaked backwards when we re-watched the earlier phases of the show again. Especially in light of the myth-arc driven television that was starting to become standard around 2001/2002. Deep Space Nine weathered that storm better.

I do remember there was a tide of negativity towards ENT from even before it went on the air-waves. That was a series that really couldn't cut a break no matter what it did.

 

[Anwar]

Even if we accept "the audiance" would have panned their efforts we are talking professional writers here they should know that sometimes people will like what they have done and other tmes they won't like what they have done, i.e not a reason to stop trying.

Well, when you're dealing with a "One Strike You're Out" audience then if you screw up even once then you're just screwed with no second chances.

It wouldn't matter how well written the show was up to that point, one screw up is all it takes to doom the rest of the show.

Of course, the other Treks can get away with this.

I don't remember much panning of the Borg corpse they discovered forshadowing that they were coming upto Borg space.

TNG said that the Borg don't leave corpses, so VOY showing a Borg corpse violated that. Despite TNG later contradicting itself over this.

As for "Shades of Grey" getting better reviews that "Living Witness" can't say I've ever come across even a single review that supports that claim. Also wasn't "Year of Hell" generally well received?

We've talked about this before, "Living Witness" is written off as a failure because of the EMH backup plot point (the audience gets a well-written story with great acting from Picardo and NONE of it matters because of the Backup plot. They let one minor plot contrivance ruin the whole episode for them). Shades of Grey is excused as "Well, there was a strike so they needed a clip show." with little to no complaint.

"Year of Hell" is condemned for having an enemy that showed up for a "year" in the show and how they should've escaped them far sooner, how the Krenim had strange time-weapons and how the whole idea of the Timeship was dumb, etc.

Of course had this been DS9 and the Timeship was some Dominion superweapon that got destroyed in a 2-parter that reset the timeline so it never existed, no one would care.

 

[MacLeod]

Odd I seem to recall "Living Witness" being called one of VOY's better episode, with a great performance by Picardo. So one can give praise to an episode despite calling attention to a massive plot hole. PLenty of films/TV episodes have plot holes in them, doesn't mean they can't be enjoyed nor does it mean just because it is well written/acted doesn't mean the plot holes can't be mentioned when discussing an episode. Now I'm not saying that there aren't people out there who let a plot hole spoil their enjoyment of a film.episode but are these the vocal minority or representive as a whole? If we look at the recent threads we have had on VOY has anyone really come out and said they hated the show and every aspect of it? Or has it been more a case of a mixed reception some praise and some critisims. Highlighting things that they could have done?

Many of the critisims levelled at VOY could have been easily addressed with a line drop in earlier episodes, i.e. In an episode inbetween "Message in a Bottle" and "Living Witness" say at the end of the staff meeting have Kim or Torres say they've managed to build a back-up module for the EMH. It would have little to no impact on the episode in which the line drop occured but it negates a critism. Or have someone working on building it in the background in an engineering scene and drop the line there. Same with the torpedeo issue say they managed to trade for parts to build new ones or got some from another species (have them glow yellow instead of the Red). These were all easy fixies.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

From what I understand the writers wanted more continuity and the network guys said "No, SHOW MUST BE BLAND GET RATINGS!"

 

[Melakon]

Paramount was opposed to Voyager being more serialized because they felt it would diminish syndication value. It's all about the money. With a serialized show, it removes the ability to air episodes in a random order, and requires an audience to be aware of everything that happened prior to a particular episode.

At least no Trek series had the misfortune of many other shows, some of which never survive even 13 weeks.

 

[MacLeod]

From what I understand the writers wanted more continuity and the network guys said "No, SHOW MUST BE BLAND GET RATINGS!"

So in the end neither side got what they wanted, more continuity or ratings.

Whilst it is true a more serialised show requires a certain degree of audiance awareness. We have the pre-teaser sequence Last time/previously on to refresh the audiance on the key bits they need to know, contempary shows such as DSN and B5 did this.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Yeah, it does diminish syndication value. But other than YoH I feel the writers wanted more the 'Underlying thread' kind of continuity than the strict serialization kind of continuity. More like the kind of continuity Seinfeld season 4 had.

The thing about syndication bucks, it relies on the viewer's emotional attachment to the show and the characters. Serialization can be a double edged sword, as it's harder to attract new viewers, but if the quality is high it's also easier to retain existing viewers and it creates more emotional attachment. So basically when you serialize you're betting on the writing.

Does anyone have data on the actual syndication money Voyager had versus DS9?

 

[MacLeod]

^True as you say both serialisation and episodic formats have their pros and cons.

 

[Anwar]

Odd I seem to recall "Living Witness" being called one of VOY's better episode, with a great performance by Picardo. So one can give praise to an episode despite calling attention to a massive plot hole.

You CAN do that, but that's not what VOY's audience chose to do. They just let petty meaningless things ruin everything.

If we look at the recent threads we have had on VOY has anyone really come out and said they hated the show and every aspect of it? Or has it been more a case of a mixed reception some praise and some critisims. Highlighting things that they could have done?

I highlight the problems with the show, but for the most part all VOY ever got was criticism with little to no appreciation.

Many of the critisims levelled at VOY could have been easily addressed with a line drop in earlier episodes, i.e. In an episode inbetween "Message in a Bottle" and "Living Witness" say at the end of the staff meeting have Kim or Torres say they've managed to build a back-up module for the EMH. It would have little to no impact on the episode in which the line drop occured but it negates a critism. Or have someone working on building it in the background in an engineering scene and drop the line there. Same with the torpedeo issue say they managed to trade for parts to build new ones or got some from another species (have them glow yellow instead of the Red). These were all easy fixies.

You'd think that, but if those things were done then the reaction would just "They can't make new torpedoes at all! It violates the premise! They can't ever back up the EMH either!"

You know that thing where Janeway is supposed to twitch her commbadge when she gets an idea and how it gets critiqued since she never did that before?

It's another no-win scenario. Either they introduce it then and there and they get "She never did this before! It sucks!" or they introduce is early on and they get "It's a stupid thing she does with her commbadge! This sucks!"

You just can't win, you really can't.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

If anyone hates Voyager completely they probably wouldn't be posting here.

Fans would have accepted better writing in any form. Serial, episodic, whatever. If the writing was better they would have loved it. Can't lay it all off on the fans. It was a pretty good show, but it was not satisfying on the whole considering its obvious potential and the legacy it chose to be compared against.