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Why Voyager was a Disappointment

See, right there, you wrote a better first season than VOY actually had. Now, imagine being paid to be that creative. Also, it makes sense and allows for more character growth.

Thanks, I thought it up based on a rewrite I did a while ago.

As for Farscape, it started out small-ish, but added new characters and kept some on, providing a more diverse crew. Crais was not killed off in favor of Scorpious, and Crais actually became an ally for part of season 2. All the characters were not there all of the time, certainly, but that doesn't mean that the cast did not get larger depending on the needs of the story. How is that for working secondaries in? :techman:

Crais was eliminated before Scorpius became part of Moya's crew thought, along with Talyn. Crais became a semi-ally once Scorpius became the new antagonist (because Crais didn't have much life in him as a recurring antagonist).

And despite the additions, the cast never was that big. Not as unwieldy as VOY's.
 
VOY was bad, but dig deep enough in to the Internet and I'm sure you will find other shows that are being eviscerated. Or, better yet, just Google "Abrams sucks" and you can be entertained by the rage that is unleashed against nuTrek around the Internet.

That's just zeitgeist, VOY's hatred still burns too hot for it to be like that.


"Hatred"? Really? :shrug:

My experience has shown me that "hatred" is too strong a word for it. There's a feeling of apathy about the two latter-day Star Trek shows, not without due justification at times. But I've seldom seen it descend to anything resembling "hate".

Anwar said:
fireproof78 said:
BOBW's flaws get overlooked because of the drama and character moments that make that piece a classic Trek episode. Likewise, TWOK, as a film, has several flaws and plot holes, but once again get overlooked for the tone and artistry being expressed in that work.

If BOBW or WOK had been VOY episodes, I'm pretty sure those plot holes that are overlooked would be pointed out a lot more.

That's just a hypothetical supposition. It isn't something either of us can say for certain.

Voyager's best episodes (I use the word 'best' advisedly; as it's a very subjective viewpoint) regularly received praise without scorn. I've never seen anyone accentuate the negative in Voyager's more well received instalments, even if they've got plot holes up the wazoo.
 
"Hatred"? Really? :shrug:

My experience has shown me that "hatred" is too strong a word for it. There's a feeling of apathy about the two latter-day Star Trek shows, not without due justification at times. But I've seldom seen it descend to anything resembling "hate".

All I know is that I've never run into anyone who says they'd enjoy TOS or TNG or DS9 more if the Captain got raped. Only VOY gets that.

That's just a hypothetical supposition. It isn't something either of us can say for certain.

Voyager's best episodes (I use the word 'best' advisedly; as it's a very subjective viewpoint) regularly received praise without scorn. I've never seen anyone accentuate the negative in Voyager's more well received instalments, even if they've got plot holes up the wazoo.

Living Witness and Scorpion beg to disagree.
 
See, right there, you wrote a better first season than VOY actually had. Now, imagine being paid to be that creative. Also, it makes sense and allows for more character growth.

Thanks, I thought it up based on a rewrite I did a while ago.

As for Farscape, it started out small-ish, but added new characters and kept some on, providing a more diverse crew. Crais was not killed off in favor of Scorpious, and Crais actually became an ally for part of season 2. All the characters were not there all of the time, certainly, but that doesn't mean that the cast did not get larger depending on the needs of the story. How is that for working secondaries in? :techman:
Crais was eliminated before Scorpius became part of Moya's crew thought, along with Talyn. Crais became a semi-ally once Scorpius became the new antagonist (because Crais didn't have much life in him as a recurring antagonist).

And despite the additions, the cast never was that big. Not as unwieldy as VOY's.

Unwieldy depends on who is wielding the cast and the story you are trying to tell. I'll grant Farscape this advantage-it was a "through the looking glass" type of story told from Crichton's point of view and his reactions.

Over time, they did add more depth to the world, including Scorpious, the Scarrans, the Ancients and various other species. The characters evolved too, with Crichton going from the outsider to defacto leader and heart of the crew. Crais even goes from an enemy to an begrudging ally, and eventually a friend. Even Scorpious was worked in in a creative way through the neural chip/neural clone.

But, all that being said, I would not really compare Farscape against VOY except to show how a lost ship can start a show, and then the show evolves from there. Beyond that, nothing about Farscape was informed from another show that they had to distinguish themselves from. VOY obviously had some different hurdles to go through, which, I think, have all been acknowledged. Those challenges just were never overcome in ways that previous shows had done so. Or, by the time that they had overcome them, competition had won out.
 
"Hatred"? Really?

My experience has shown me that "hatred" is too strong a word for it. There's a feeling of apathy about the two latter-day Star Trek shows, not without due justification at times. But I've seldom seen it descend to anything resembling "hate".
All I know is that I've never run into anyone who says they'd enjoy TOS or TNG or DS9 more if the Captain got raped. Only VOY gets that.

Somebody really said that? :(

All I can say is that in 15 years being part of online fandom, I've never once encountered anything like that. I've seen people say they like or dislike certain episodes or characters, you know, reasonable and civil debate, discussion, opinion. But no, I've never seen vitriol like that said about VOYAGER.

Now, ENTERPRISE on the other hand, that is a show I've seen some pretty unpleasant things said about over the years..... but that's a whole different kettle of fish.
 
The entire Crew of Voyager was almost raped in the pilot except B'Elanna and Kim who were raped.

We saw everyone in stirrups, but why Caretaker only ####ed two people non-consensually when he teed up 150 people to be violated, sounds like Banjoman had some obvious issues with Avarice or/and Gluttony.

Or maybe he wasn't absolutely sure he knew who he wanted to rape until everyone was tied up and presenting their sexual members to him?

Clothing hides a lot of deal breakers you should know about before you agree to full sex with the lights on.

I've put forward the idea before that Naomi Wildman is actually the Caretakers's child.

Think about it.

Sisko on the other hand was a child of rape.

Sure Joe thought it was his wife who loved him, but since her identity was a complete fabrication, that means, she committed fraud on his junk. Didn't Sisko do the same thing to Mirror jadzia( and the Atendant?).
 
Sisko had THREE Dax's he could have slept with, one of whom was a very loose sort of Dax. And he failed to do it. But as soon as he found a Dax-less copy of one of the Dax containers he went for it.

I think he has issues.
 
Dax made out with her Captain alot in Fascination after Lwaxanna GHBed everyone.

It was a cheap trick to pair off Kira and Julian for a marathon make out session since the actors where married in real life.

If Jake had got some lip time with the major, that would have been hilarious.

Sisko was Dax for a bit.

Did that happen twice?

Gotta wonder if they had hanky panky time?

How long would it have taken Joran to get to masturbation stations before security stunned him?

Meh?

But then, Leonard McCoy's sloppy seconds.

Ewww.
 
Unwieldy depends on who is wielding the cast and the story you are trying to tell.

The tale of a single lost ship works better with a smaller cast. You want a bigger cast, then tell bigger story involving all the locals in some Galactic Crisis storyline.

Over time, they did add more depth to the world, including Scorpious, the Scarrans, the Ancients and various other species.

Cause they had time, and no one cared Moya always stayed in the Uncharted Territories the way VOY kept getting complaints over staying in one place too long.

The characters evolved too, with Crichton going from the outsider to defacto leader and heart of the crew. Crais even goes from an enemy to an begrudging ally, and eventually a friend. Even Scorpious was worked in in a creative way through the neural chip/neural clone.

Smaller cast = Easier to focus on the few and give them development without too much complaint.

Beyond that, nothing about Farscape was informed from another show that they had to distinguish themselves from.

Exactly, being the first show in its' verse was an advantage.
 
Whilst it might be easier with a smaller cast to give them development it doesn't mean it can't be done with a larger cast.
 
Whilst it might be easier with a smaller cast to give them development it doesn't mean it can't be done with a larger cast.

Development of a larger cast works when you have a larger plot. DS9 had a Galactic War to develop it's characters and give them all stuff to do, but that wouldn't really work on VOY since it's plot was so much smaller and there wasn't much need for everyone to do lots of stuff.
 
Unwieldy depends on who is wielding the cast and the story you are trying to tell.

The tale of a single lost ship works better with a smaller cast. You want a bigger cast, then tell bigger story involving all the locals in some Galactic Crisis storyline.

Over time, they did add more depth to the world, including Scorpious, the Scarrans, the Ancients and various other species.
Cause they had time, and no one cared Moya always stayed in the Uncharted Territories the way VOY kept getting complaints over staying in one place too long.

The characters evolved too, with Crichton going from the outsider to defacto leader and heart of the crew. Crais even goes from an enemy to an begrudging ally, and eventually a friend. Even Scorpious was worked in in a creative way through the neural chip/neural clone.
Smaller cast = Easier to focus on the few and give them development without too much complaint.

Beyond that, nothing about Farscape was informed from another show that they had to distinguish themselves from.
Exactly, being the first show in its' verse was an advantage.

Right, Farscape had a advantage. VOY had several others, including an experienced production staff, and a prebuilt fan base. And, before you say it, I don't believe that the fanbase, however it will be defined, set out to hate it, any more than when TNG came out all the TOS fans set out to hate that. It may have been outside their sensibility or preference for the type of show they desired. Despite the assertions, and request for verification, no verifiable evidence has been given that the audience "hated" (or ignored, panned, changed the channel, etc.) because they "stayed in one spot." If there is one common thread to disappointment, it was the characters and the "reset button" be used far more often than the show's premised promised to be.

With VOY, there was not distinguishing itself from TNG other than the DQ. Well, the DQ might as well have been the AQ given the fact that events from episode to episode mattered very little, except in minor, insignificant ways.

If the plot line was not working, production staff should have changed it, pure and simple-not just in a two part episode, where the writing staff often changes so that one writer writes one half and another writes another half, sometimes resulting in disconnect.

I mean, DS9 started out with a space station, and the action coming to it, and then the Dominion War was inserted. Guess what? You can have a crisis plot and not stay in the same place. Totally doable.

Instead, TPTB fell in to lock step with the TNG formula, and did not deviate from it, safe for in the very few instances. That's disappointing and a waste of potential, not hatred.
 
Right, Farscape had a advantage. VOY had several others, including an experienced production staff, and a prebuilt fan base.

VOY had a lot more constraints than Farscape did, though. Enough to cancel out its advantages.

If the plot line was not working, production staff should have changed it, pure and simple-not just in a two part episode, where the writing staff often changes so that one writer writes one half and another writes another half, sometimes resulting in disconnect.

And like I've said, anytime they tried (Scorpion or the Void) all they got for their trouble was panning. They get hit coming and going.

I mean, DS9 started out with a space station, and the action coming to it, and then the Dominion War was inserted. Guess what? You can have a crisis plot and not stay in the same place. Totally doable.

But DS9 DID stay in the same place, the station never left Bajor's system. In their case being stationary was the reason they did as much as they did.

Instead, TPTB fell in to lock step with the TNG formula, and did not deviate from it, safe for in the very few instances. That's disappointing and a waste of potential, not hatred.

There's hatred in there, believe me.
 
Right, Farscape had a advantage. VOY had several others, including an experienced production staff, and a prebuilt fan base.

VOY had a lot more constraints than Farscape did, though. Enough to cancel out its advantages.

If the plot line was not working, production staff should have changed it, pure and simple-not just in a two part episode, where the writing staff often changes so that one writer writes one half and another writes another half, sometimes resulting in disconnect.
And like I've said, anytime they tried (Scorpion or the Void) all they got for their trouble was panning. They get hit coming and going.

I mean, DS9 started out with a space station, and the action coming to it, and then the Dominion War was inserted. Guess what? You can have a crisis plot and not stay in the same place. Totally doable.
But DS9 DID stay in the same place, the station never left Bajor's system. In their case being stationary was the reason they did as much as they did.

Instead, TPTB fell in to lock step with the TNG formula, and did not deviate from it, safe for in the very few instances. That's disappointing and a waste of potential, not hatred.
There's hatred in there, believe me.

First of all, I'm not denying that there is not hate among some VOY detractors. I'm disagreeing with the whole premise that the only reason VOY failed was that the audience hated it. I'm just not seeing that as the primary reason, or even the one that comes up most often for why people don't like VOY.

I don't think that VOY's constraints were enough to cancel out any advantages of being a Star Trek show. Mostly because I've watched other shows overcome similar constraints, rather than settle.

DS9 was stationary but it did more with the story than the constraints of the premise allowed, by allowing the unique aspects of the Wormhole, and the mystery of the Gamma Quadrant unfolding. Also, they were not reluctant to branch out to Kronos, Cardassia, as well as mystery planets in the Gamma Quadrant.

If you create a mystery and continue it on, then you can create a hook for the audience to keep coming back, even if they don't stay in the same place every week. The problem is that VOY never even tried it from the beginning. From the beginning they did TNG stories under the banner of something new.
 
1. Nothing immoral could happen that wouldn't be reversed.

2. They couldn't get home till the final episode.

3. %95 bottle episodes, no continuity and no development.

:)

There was something in my eye the first time I watched the last episode of Enterprise, and because of the weird angle that Jonathan was standing at, with respect to the camera, for about 30 seconds I thought that Archer had lost an arm between the final episode and the previous week.

As far as the actor was concerned, he had to act with one arm tied behind his back.

Awesome!

Blink/rub eyes.

Oh.

My bad.
 
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