Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Lance, Nov 8, 2013.
Until Star Trek Into Darkness when Kirk actually gets demoted for violating it.
Except that by doing that the Klingons were violating their peace treaty with the Federation.
Which is meaningless to the people of Neural.
Yes, but only because the Federation forgot that the treaty was imposed by all powerful aliens who could just smite the Klingons.
Also that the Klingons were untrustworthy assholes so the federation should have included orbital death cannons as part of the treaty.
I also I wonder if the Klingons forgot what happened the last time they picked on a supposed lesser race or the fact that there are a lot of godlike being in the TOS universe before being assholes.
Seems like raining death from above on the people of Neural would be a major Prime Directive no-no.
your comments are fascinating. On one hand, you rant about imperialistic foreign policies and the violations of the rights of minorities, then when it comes to dealing with certain Alpha Quadrant powers, you're gung-ho about gunboat diplomacy and orbital death cannons!
^Oh, come now. The problem has never existed that couldn't be solved with orbital death cannons!
Actually they would be pointed out into space at the Klingons
Only the ones that diplomacy doesn't seem to work with unless they blow up their own moon and even then some of them think a suicidal charge is preferable to negotiating peace to the point that they kill their leader and conspire with Federation citizens to not have to work with Federation citizens.
Also with the Cardassians they didn't need orbital death cannons just observation outposts to monitor the DMZ like the had with the Romulans to keep an eye on them since after trying to screw the federation over about three times they should probably stop trusting them Cardassians so much.
Usually those are referred to as Orbital Defense Platforms.
I would imagine the Klingons would figure a way around those pretty quick.
True but I doubt those actually exist in the Star Trek universe as Earth would probably have some of those instead of just those three ships things the Borg blow up without even stopping on their way to Earth.
I don't know thanks to the 24th century the Klingons don't exactly come off as tech geniuses they're more likely to just shoot at them thus likely attract the nearest Federation starship.
Seriously their idea of treating the loss of an eye is bolting an eyepatch to your head.
For a warrior, I imagine it's more of a trophy and a signal not to fuck with them than a statement on Klingon medical technology.
And Martok was so bad he didn't need no damn patch.
That was in one of the many alternate universes, and not germane to a discussion involving the prime.
Are you suggesting that if a similar set of circumstances occurred in the Primeverse there would be a different outcome?
Interesting notion. Off the top of my head I don't see why things would have gone differently just by virtue of being in a different timeline, but it's possible that Starfleet regulations regarding the PD are different between the two timelines as well, or that Pike or his superiors would be different enough people to rule differently regarding Kirk.
I thought that whole bit about the PD in "Into Darkness" was a not-so-subtle slap at the whole "let them die!" nature of the TNG-era Prime Directive.
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, though.
I figure Starfleet Command would have been fine with Kirk saving the planet if he hadn't flown the Enterprise over them in plain view.
Heck even Spock kept saying they hadn't actually violated the Prime Directive until that happened.
Janeway (an admiral in Nemesis) apparently didn't suffer at the hands of starfleet command after Voyager flew over 1990's Los Angeles, potentually witnessed by far more than the few dozens of natives who saw the nu'prise in ST Twelve.
Prime Kirk only faced demotion in ST Four, after violoating orders. Never for breaching the prime directive, which according to Voyager he was on record doing many times.
So yes, I'm suggesting that the punishment that nuKirk experienced was unique to the alternate universe, and all things being equal Prime Kirk would not have suffered the same punishment, for the exact same actions and decisions.
Well, the demotion was a both a way of disciplining Kirk for disobeying a direct order from the Starfleet Commander while rewarding him for saving Earth, a unusual situation that merited an equally unusual solution.
My sense from the film was that Kirk was demoted more for falsifying his reports about the incident than for whatever potential prime directive violation might have happened in flying the Enterprise over the Weekians.
Which, to me, seems fair: one can reasonably debate whether exposing a civilization to concepts far outside their experience incidentally to saving them from extinction is a worthwhile risk. Lying to the people who are to review and debate your actions is unacceptable for an organization of grownups.
The thing about that (which makes no sense) is, if Kirk is going to basically lie in his report, and makes the assumption that Spock is also going to lie in his report (because Kirk saved his ass), doesn't it make sense that Kirk would think to sit down with Spock and get their stories straight?
Then change the ship's records (remember when Kirk and Sarek watched the recording of Spocks death in ST Three?), changing the records would likely involve the ship's top computer expert, Spock.
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