You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

[sonak]

the situation with the Federation during the Dominion War was much more desperate than it was during "mirror, mirror."

It's kind of like Sisko in ITPM. If you're going to try to be ethically pure while fighting a war for your very survival, you're going to lose. Every democratic power has done unethical things for a greater good during war.

Keep in mind that I think that the case for removal would have been clearly justified even WITHOUT a war going on, but it becomes much more so during the Dominion War. Insurrection presents such an absurd scenario of Picard's supposed "idealism" during a major war that it loses any touch with how a government would act during war.

1) This is all based on the assumption that the war is still going on, which we don't know because we don't exactly no when the film takes place.

2) They need dilithium less than in Mirror Mirror since they can just re-crystalize, hell they can probably replicate the stuff now.

And as for deuterium if we go with the Star Trek version I don't think there would be conflict with the Ba'ku since its found on what is basically Hell in planet form (aka why they call them Demon Planets) so they would either be crispy corpses or a life form that is native to that kind of planet.

And of their native to it then like the Tholians (the only race shown so far that would probably survive in that kind of environment) unless their in that environment they shatter.

So unless the feds have more planets available like said hell world they're risking committing genocide.

And we can go on and on about whats necessary for a nation to survive but genocide especially of innocents will never be justified EVER.

So I'm not seeing how the movie works from starship fuel being the central conflict driver since it doesn't ecalty work in the TNG era of the trek verse.

they were removing the Baku, not killing them. Unless you mean that the Baku simply dying of OLD AGE once they're removed is equivalent to genocide.


But then you were so casual about the SON'A dying of old age, weren't you?


Why aren't the Baku guilty of it for exiling the Son'a to die slowly?

 

[DonIago]

The Baku are too pretty to be criminals.

 

[Commishsleer]

Didn't the Baku say they won't allow machinery as it taints their achievements. How far is this non-machinery zone? Is it the whole planet?
Didn't they get rid of the Son'a because of their use of machinery. If they could have just banished them to out-of-their-sight then the Son'a could have easily lived 1000 miles away without problems. I think the Baku must have not wanted machinery on the entire planet.
Wait how did the Baku ban the Sona without machinery, or has this question been asked once or twice before?

 

[SeerSGB]

Didn't the Baku say they won't allow machinery as it taints their achievements. How far is this non-machinery zone? Is it the whole planet?
Didn't they get rid of the Son'a because of their use of machinery. If they could have just banished them to out-of-their-sight then the Son'a could have easily lived 1000 miles away without problems. I think the Baku must have not wanted machinery on the entire planet.
Wait how did the Baku ban the Sona without machinery, or has this question been asked once or twice before?

Eyup. Which brings up the question of what keeps the S'ona from landing on the otherside of the planet ever few decades and soaking up some of the radiation for a few weeks, then zipping back out into the galaxy? There's no way the Baku would have known or been able to stop them if they did.

 

[AgentCoop]

^Besides, the Baku are very willing to let OTHER PEOPLE use advanced technology (and risk their lives) to defend Baku interests. As long as they don't have to dirty their own hands. Yep. Those Baku sure are morally superior, aren't they?

 

[2takesfrakes]

As I recall, the Baku were very educated on up-to-date technologies, as they even seemed to be informed of how Data's Positronic Brain functions and ... and so forth. I got the impression from the light-haired father that they just don't like using technology where it "takes away" from the work Men do that makes them feel worthwhile ... and truly satisfied with life ... and living.

 

[DonIago]

We all know how this turns out anyway...six months after the Baku planet's been saved and Our Heroes are done patting themselves on their backs, Section 31 swoops in with their own collector and vacuums the rings dry.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

the situation with the Federation during the Dominion War was much more desperate than it was during "mirror, mirror."

It's kind of like Sisko in ITPM. If you're going to try to be ethically pure while fighting a war for your very survival, you're going to lose. Every democratic power has done unethical things for a greater good during war.

Keep in mind that I think that the case for removal would have been clearly justified even WITHOUT a war going on, but it becomes much more so during the Dominion War. Insurrection presents such an absurd scenario of Picard's supposed "idealism" during a major war that it loses any touch with how a government would act during war.

1) This is all based on the assumption that the war is still going on, which we don't know because we don't exactly no when the film takes place.

2) They need dilithium less than in Mirror Mirror since they can just re-crystalize, hell they can probably replicate the stuff now.

And as for deuterium if we go with the Star Trek version I don't think there would be conflict with the Ba'ku since its found on what is basically Hell in planet form (aka why they call them Demon Planets) so they would either be crispy corpses or a life form that is native to that kind of planet.

And of their native to it then like the Tholians (the only race shown so far that would probably survive in that kind of environment) unless their in that environment they shatter.

So unless the feds have more planets available like said hell world they're risking committing genocide.

And we can go on and on about whats necessary for a nation to survive but genocide especially of innocents will never be justified EVER.

So I'm not seeing how the movie works from starship fuel being the central conflict driver since it doesn't ecalty work in the TNG era of the trek verse.

they were removing the Baku, not killing them.

I'm responding to your they should have had the movie about a fuel source by pointing out the only fuel source the federation goes to any trouble to get in the 24th century is on a type planet that the Ba'ku would have to be a very different form of life to live on to the point that they can't live on M-class planets, since M-class planets don't have toxic (by human standards) atmosphere and temperatures that may or may not cause humans to burst into flames.

So the federation needs another one of those types of planets to move them too as a hypothetical Ba'ku that could survive on a Y-class planet where the only fuel the federation hasn't figured out how no run out of would probably be incapable of survivng on an M-class planet.

Of course this also doesn't acount for the fact that the federation doesn't have to relocate them if they were just trying to get fuel as they could just mine it on the other side of the planet. So again changing the film from vainity particles to a fuel source doesn't really work.

Basically I'm shooting holes in your the film would work better if the conflict was over a fuel source by pointing out the problems with that.

We all know how this turns out anyway...six months after the Baku planet's been saved and Our Heroes are done patting themselves on their backs, Section 31 swoops in with their own collector and vacuums the rings dry.

Well unless Picard is around and stops them a which point he probably gets a medal for stopping the rouge terrorist group Section 31 from yet another of their criminal enterprises.

Also probably killing any further attempts at relocation since nothing practically kills any good points for the relocation side then being seen as in leauge with treasonous (what with their spying on the elected government they have no regard for) terrorists.

besides Dougherty already said the federation doesn't have any idea how the collector actually works so how the hell is a terrorist organization (that needs Starfleet to do their dirty work because of how pathetic they are when you actually think about it) supposed to build one.

 

[DonIago]

Honestly, if S31 did get involved I suspect they'd sooner blow up the planet and their own ships then a) allow even the possibility of the rings falling into hostile hands, b) allow any evidence of their involvement to be located. They're smarter than that.

I suspect that while the Federation doesn't know how the collector works, S31 is able and more than willing to take any and all necessary actions to acquire that information from the Son'a. Given the Son'a are already supplying Ketracel White to the Dominion (or were), it's doubtful S31 regards them as anything other than a hostile power in any case.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

They're smarter than that.

No their not.

Their first appearance was kidnapping Bashir under the delusion that putting him through some psychological labyrinth while going on about how they get to do what ever they want would make him inclined to join their little club.

Next they undertake a convoluted plan to screw over a federation supporter on Romulus to help the head of the Tal Shiar get a cushy position under the belief that a) that he won't screw them over later despite no reason given during the episode what so ever to believe that, b) that the Tal Shiar wouldn't find out and sack him if was a traitor to the Star Empire, or c) that they can trust a guy who is screwing over his own people when he has even less of a reason to trust them.

After that we get the virus to kill the Founders that when you think about it probably didn't contribute crap towards ending the war since by the time the federation and its allies got to Cardasssia conventionally THE WAR WAS PRETTY MUCH OVER. Oh and they also couldn't keep the federation form finding a cure for the virus any way.

Not to mention the fact that they used it before the war even started, if the Romulans hadn't joined the war the feds may have been conquered before it even killed the Founders, and the Founders could have just responded to dying out by have the Jem'Hadar go on rampage and burn half the quadrant down, but this apparently never occurred to Section 31 who based their discussion on what the Jem'Hadar did in one instance despite Sisko trying that idea and it sort of blew up in his face.

Then there is their appearance on Enterprise where they were surprised that the Klingons tried to stab them in the back and Archer pretty much had to do all the work while they sat on their asses and tried to take the credit.

Then there is Star Trek Into Darkness where true to form they thought pissing off Khan Noonien Singh of all people was a good idea.

Thats not counting the novels where we get such gems as...

1) Using an engineer with no spy training what so ever as a deep cover operative while giving him a cover identity of a man the Romulans knew was dead making it useless.

2) Their convoluted plans and attempts a making an Omega Particle literally blowing up in their faces by taking out a sector of space and pretty much getting them a spot on James T. "Slayer of gods" Kirk's personal shit list.

3) Almost handing the Romulans the key to galactic domination and screwing over a planet that was tow steps away from joining the federation for a list of Tal Shiar operatives that their afore mentioned director flat out said was worthless.

4) Almost creating the next Khan Noonien Singh.

5) From the sound of it not being able to assassinate one person.

Yeah, so going by their record chances are the harvested particles would probably kill whoever tried to use them and their attempts to either get them or commit genocide to hide them would probably blow up in their faces, possibly screw over the federation, and/or expose them in general to a nice stay in federation prison for the lot of them.

 

[sonak]

1) This is all based on the assumption that the war is still going on, which we don't know because we don't exactly no when the film takes place.

2) They need dilithium less than in Mirror Mirror since they can just re-crystalize, hell they can probably replicate the stuff now.

And as for deuterium if we go with the Star Trek version I don't think there would be conflict with the Ba'ku since its found on what is basically Hell in planet form (aka why they call them Demon Planets) so they would either be crispy corpses or a life form that is native to that kind of planet.

And of their native to it then like the Tholians (the only race shown so far that would probably survive in that kind of environment) unless their in that environment they shatter.

So unless the feds have more planets available like said hell world they're risking committing genocide.

And we can go on and on about whats necessary for a nation to survive but genocide especially of innocents will never be justified EVER.

So I'm not seeing how the movie works from starship fuel being the central conflict driver since it doesn't ecalty work in the TNG era of the trek verse.

they were removing the Baku, not killing them.

I'm responding to your they should have had the movie about a fuel source by pointing out the only fuel source the federation goes to any trouble to get in the 24th century is on a type planet that the Ba'ku would have to be a very different form of life to live on to the point that they can't live on M-class planets, since M-class planets don't have toxic (by human standards) atmosphere and temperatures that may or may not cause humans to burst into flames.

So the federation needs another one of those types of planets to move them too as a hypothetical Ba'ku that could survive on a Y-class planet where the only fuel the federation hasn't figured out how no run out of would probably be incapable of survivng on an M-class planet.

Of course this also doesn't acount for the fact that the federation doesn't have to relocate them if they were just trying to get fuel as they could just mine it on the other side of the planet. So again changing the film from vainity particles to a fuel source doesn't really work.

Basically I'm shooting holes in your the film would work better if the conflict was over a fuel source by pointing out the problems with that.

We all know how this turns out anyway...six months after the Baku planet's been saved and Our Heroes are done patting themselves on their backs, Section 31 swoops in with their own collector and vacuums the rings dry.

Well unless Picard is around and stops them a which point he probably gets a medal for stopping the rouge terrorist group Section 31 from yet another of their criminal enterprises.

Also probably killing any further attempts at relocation since nothing practically kills any good points for the relocation side then being seen as in leauge with treasonous (what with their spying on the elected government they have no regard for) terrorists.

besides Dougherty already said the federation doesn't have any idea how the collector actually works so how the hell is a terrorist organization (that needs Starfleet to do their dirty work because of how pathetic they are when you actually think about it) supposed to build one.

You're overthinking the "fuel source" premise. My idea would just be that the process of extracting the fuel(or energy source for a weapon, or whatever) would make the Baku planet uninhabitable for a while, just as the premise for INS is that extracting the particles makes their planet uninhabitable for a while. Since the movie doesn't sweat the technical details, I wouldn't either.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

You're overthinking the "fuel source" premise. My idea would just be that the process of extracting the fuel(or energy source for a weapon, or whatever) would make the Baku planet uninhabitable for a while, just as the premise for INS is that extracting the particles makes their planet uninhabitable for a while. Since the movie doesn't sweat the technical details, I wouldn't either.

Except none of the fuel sources they use would require mining that would make the planet unlivable.

Plus none of them are rare enough that they would have to bother with the Ba'ku in the first place.

Besides anything the film would use to to shift the balance of the Dominion War would likely be ignored seeing as the DS9 writers probably don't want the film guys stepping on their toes.

 

[SeerSGB]

Insurrection strikes me as one of those movies that could do with a lose/win ending.

* Collector explodes.
* The crew stand on the bridge and watch as the rings ignite. The planet is doomed. The rings blaze. Then...
* The rings burn out, the planet is left untouch.
* The planet, the Baku, are all saved but the rings are gone. Now the Federation, the S'ona, have all lost what they were fighting over. The Baku agree to take in the S'ona refugees and settle in and seen content with the knowledge that they're going to age.

Edit To add:

* The rings burning screws up something in the atmosphere/magnetics of the planet that now most technology will no longer function on the planet and it'll be decades if not centuries before it reverts to normal. Meaning once the last S'ona and Baku leave the Enterprise and return to the planet, there's no leaving the planet in their lifetime.

 

[sonak]

You're overthinking the "fuel source" premise. My idea would just be that the process of extracting the fuel(or energy source for a weapon, or whatever) would make the Baku planet uninhabitable for a while, just as the premise for INS is that extracting the particles makes their planet uninhabitable for a while. Since the movie doesn't sweat the technical details, I wouldn't either.

Except none of the fuel sources they use would require mining that would make the planet unlivable.

Plus none of them are rare enough that they would have to bother with the Ba'ku in the first place.

Besides anything the film would use to to shift the balance of the Dominion War would likely be ignored seeing as the DS9 writers probably don't want the film guys stepping on their toes.

No, I mean that it would be a newly discovered fuel source, something much more valuable than what they have. They'd say something like "it could make our starships go faster and sustain their speeds much longer," or something like that. If you change the stakes to that, and maybe make the Baku population much larger, and you make them indigenous to the planet, then you have a much more balanced dilemma.

On the one hand, the new fuel could be a game-changer in the war, on the other, you have a large, indigenous population of peaceful inhabitants that would be removed from their homes.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Insurrection strikes me as one of those movies that could do with a lose/win ending.

* Collector explodes.
* The crew stand on the bridge and watch as the rings ignite. The planet is doomed. The rings blaze. Then...
* The rings burn out, the planet is left untouch.
* The planet, the Baku, are all saved but the rings are gone. Now the Federation, the S'ona, have all lost what they were fighting over. The Baku agree to take in the S'ona refugees and settle in and seen content with the knowledge that they're going to age.

Edit To add:

* The rings burning screws up something in the atmosphere/magnetics of the planet that now most technology will no longer function on the planet and it'll be decades if not centuries before it reverts to normal. Meaning once the last S'ona and Baku leave the Enterprise and return to the planet, there's no leaving the planet in their lifetime.

Of course the question is would the Ba'ku really see either of those as a loss, I mean their big motivation was just finding a planet to left alone on the immortality was probably just a nice bonus to them.

You're overthinking the "fuel source" premise. My idea would just be that the process of extracting the fuel(or energy source for a weapon, or whatever) would make the Baku planet uninhabitable for a while, just as the premise for INS is that extracting the particles makes their planet uninhabitable for a while. Since the movie doesn't sweat the technical details, I wouldn't either.

Except none of the fuel sources they use would require mining that would make the planet unlivable.

Plus none of them are rare enough that they would have to bother with the Ba'ku in the first place.

Besides anything the film would use to to shift the balance of the Dominion War would likely be ignored seeing as the DS9 writers probably don't want the film guys stepping on their toes.

No, I mean that it would be a newly discovered fuel source, something much more valuable than what they have. They'd say something like "it could make our starships go faster and sustain their speeds much longer," or something like that. If you change the stakes to that, and maybe make the Baku population much larger, and you make them indigenous to the planet, then you have a much more balanced dilemma.

On the one hand, the new fuel could be a game-changer in the war, on the other, you have a large, indigenous population of peaceful inhabitants that would be removed from their homes.

So basically the Federation becomes similar to Western Civilization in the Middle East for the last couple of decades.

 

[DonIago]

If the Baku were really just looking for a planet to be left alone on then relocation shouldn't have been an issue for them.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

If the Baku were really just looking for a planet to be left alone on then relocation shouldn't have been an issue for them.

They found a planet, they were probably just annoyed that they were spied and and were about to be kidnapped on the basis that the Federation is bigger stronger and can do whatever it wants the rest of the galaxy be damned.

Honestly all the talk about the Ba'ku being assholes seems to forget that the federation at least of the TNG era is probably the biggest group of assholes in the galaxy.

I mean seriously...

1) They go around space preaching about how morally superior they are and how everyone should be like them while thumbing their noes at them.

2) They let billions die just because either they haven't reached a certain tech level (meaning they are pretty much saying pre-warp civilizations are worth spit or) or because of an insane troll logic grasp of evolution that borders on Nazi pseudoscience.

3) They sign treaties and then pretty much let to other party get away with violating them without any consequences and get pissy when their citizens don't just die like cattle.

4) They respond to an attack on one of their ships with a freaking biological weapon strike.

5) Their military leadership seems to mostly consist of corrupt and or evil officers.

6) They let nutjobs command starships and reward them with a promotion instead of locking their asses up.

7) They let a terrorist organization do whatever the hell they want.

8) They let their former allies invade the crap out of another nation with only a token condemnation and don't even bother to formal give said other nation a heads up.

9) They fork over their allies territory to another power without even talking to them first.

10) They have an entertainment device that frequently malfunctions and nearly kills them but never bother to either figure out why it keeps doing that and making sure it stops doing it or just plain not using the damned thing anymore.

11) And hell in this film their representative flat out said they were keeping their half of the particles for themselves. As in no they weren't going to share them with anyone.

12) While doing all of this they hypocritically go on about being the good guys while seemingly thinking this lets them do whatever they want regardless of who gets screwed over by it, at least the Founders are honest about treating everyone else like crap.

And the Ba'ku are the assholes just because they don't want to get kicked of their planet because the federation is pretty much admittedly too lazy to find an alternative to destroying an entire ecosystem just so they can live for a few more decades

 

[Armored Saint]

If the Baku were really just looking for a planet to be left alone on then relocation shouldn't have been an issue for them.

I don't think it's a good idea to say to Acadians "Why your ancestor's deportation should be a drama? If they simply wanted to live their life, what's the problem with their relocation. »". Forced relocation is rarely pleasant.

 

[DonIago]

I'm not sure who Acadians are, so it's difficult for me to respond to that, but as I noted earlier, in an age of replicators, transporters, holodecks, etc. I see little point in placing too much emphasis on "home", especially if by moving you can do a whole bunch of other people a world of good...no pun intended.

 

[T'Girl]

Why didn't the Baku offer soon after they figured out the medically beneficial properties of the planet?

Offer to the galaxy.

Why doesn't the US government offer to end world hunger right now? They could do it with relative ease.

Difficult to see what you're talking about. Americans exports vast amounts of food every year, about half of all grain on the international market is grown in America, a third of our agricultural acreage is used to grow food for export.

Unlike the Baku and the radiation from the rings, America doesn't selfishly hide the fact that we grow food.

Are you trying to hold the Ba'ku to a higher moral standard than the government of the good ol' U-S of A?

I would want them to rise to the shining example we set when it comes to morality.

Besides considering how much of a pain in the ass contacting people from the Briar Patch is, that's a lot of trouble to ask a species that just wants to be left alone to go to.

Spreading the news of the discovery to the galaxy might get in the way of the Baku selfishly keeping it all to themselves.

besides Dougherty already said the federation doesn't have any idea how the collector actually works so how the hell is a terrorist organization (that needs Starfleet to do their dirty work because of how pathetic they are when you actually think about it) supposed to build one.

You don't think the Sona actually built the collector themselves do you? S31 would get the saome people to build them a collector as the Sona did. One of the Sona's "servant races."

That's assuming that the federation council doesn't beat them to it, I firmly believe that after the council review of the matter that they would be the ones to have another collector built, followed by the federation harvesting the particles for the benefit of the federation members.

Since the well being of the federation is S31's goal, as long as the particles are collected for the federation, they'd be content.