You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

[sonak]

This whole "they were never asked" argument seems less and less credible to me and more and more like a rationalization. Is there some reason they couldn't have offered?

Well I don't know about you but if I was dealing with members of a foriegn power who I had found spying on me and then found out they planed to kidnap me to steal my home under some Neoconish might makes right justification I doubt I would want to negotiate with them and would proceed to call the cops to come and lock them up.

you continue to misrepresent the views of the pro-removal crowd, probably because you realize that if you ACCURATELY represented them, it would be clear that your argument would have nothing to stand on.

The basis for arguing for removal is:


1. The Baku are not indigenous

2. The planet is in Federation space

3. If the planet isn't in Federation space, then the Son'a or any other Alpha Quadrant power would come along and easily remove a small village of pacifists anyway

4. The Son'a have equal claim to the planet and have every right to remove the Baku, who did the same to them

5. The medical benefits to billions outweigh the needs of a small village, any remotely consequentialist form of ethics would find that ethically valid, only an extreme property-rights-based ethics would find for the Baku


If you're going to go with the "greedy Federation" route, then you can turn that argument right back on the Baku. They're hoarding the resources and denying them to billions.

 

[DonIago]

You know...I don't know whether this could have worked, but if there'd been a prologue in which the E-E effectively stumbled onto the Baku planet shortly after a battle with the Dominion in which they'd taken heavy casualties, and then realized the healing properties of the rings...

...then fast forward to the events of the film minus the Son'a. After the E reported on what happened Dougherty instigated his operation.

This not only removes muddy Son'a issues and replaces them with clear and more relatable examples of how the planet rings are useful, but gives the E a measure of responsibility for the entire situation and possibly ups the potential conflict between crewmembers.

Hell, you could even have the Son'a show up as a race that's dying and need the concentrated particles to save themselves. They don't want to kill the Baku (well, maybe Ru'afo does), but they sure as hell don't want to die themselves either.

 

[sonak]

You know...I don't know whether this could have worked, but if there'd been a prologue in which the E-E effectively stumbled onto the Baku planet shortly after a battle with the Dominion in which they'd taken heavy casualties, and then realized the healing properties of the rings...

...then fast forward to the events of the film minus the Son'a. After the E reported on what happened Dougherty instigated his operation.

This not only removes muddy Son'a issues and replaces them with clear and more relatable examples of how the planet rings are useful, but gives the E a measure of responsibility for the entire situation and possibly ups the potential conflict between crewmembers.

Hell, you could even have the Son'a show up as a race that's dying and need the concentrated particles to save themselves. They don't want to kill the Baku (well, maybe Ru'afo does), but they sure as hell don't want to die themselves either.

I think the given for uses of the rings are pretty clear and relatable already. Look at the scene with Geordi and his regenerated eyes. You can easily extrapolate from that to all the benefits that the planet can bring.


I think a better route for the movie, if they were going to go for an "insurrection" route was to change the stakes. Make the resource something for building weapons or fueling starships, then make it a pure "federation vs. federation" fight with no Son'a. Make it more like "Avatar" in other words, where the conflict is more balanced.

"property rights of 600 hypocrites vs. medical benefits to billions" is just not a balanced dilemma.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

And I don't give a damn how badly you've been treated, if you're going to sit on, say, a cure for cancer for even hundreds of innocent people because a few individuals treated you badly? You're no better than they are.

Speaking as a Jew, the idea that Nazi medical research, however ill-gotten, should be swept under the carpet because of how it was obtained horrifies me. If -anything- positive can be gained from the research, then we should utilize it. The idea that that's legitimizing the methodology is bollocks. The dead are dead, and I can't imagine that they would all have an attitude of, "The way you discovered this medicine killed me, so no, I don't want you to use it to cure others."

Agreed. And, this is how I feel about the use of Khan's Augment blood to relieve Kirk's radiation sickness, or any other disease that might crop up in existence; it shouldn't be thrown away because of 'moral ambiguities' or because it might make the person like Khan (which is a crock of bullshit in itself.)

I think a better route for the movie, if they were going to go for an "insurrection" route was to change the stakes. Make the resource something for building weapons or fueling starships, then make it a pure "federation vs. federation" fight with no Son'a. Make it more like "Avatar" in other words, where the conflict is more balanced.

Love the mention of Avatar, and also think that Avatar is a better movie than Insurrection in that regard.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The particles were able to spontaneously cure a condition that is beyond the abilities of Federation science to fix.

Really they already were well on their way there I mean hell Gordie 's vision in ways is already better than everyone else's since he can see through freaking walls all they need is a normal vison setting and he's good to go.

Besides they could probably cure that and other serious conditions like death if they dusted off the Project Genesis research or researched Graves's brain swaping tech aftrer figuring out how to build android bodies and become effectivly immortal.

Or hell study the particles and figure out how to synthesizing them without wrecking the planet

Curing the Son'a, for instance.

The Son'a were suffering from old age not a disease so thats not an example of the particles doing something other than extending life spans.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Make the resource something for building weapons or fueling starships

Except Mirror Mirror already established that the federation doesn't go around taking over planets for starship fuel even back when dilithium couldn't be re-crystalized so its not very believable that they would do so after having the ability to re-crystalize it since not they kind of have an infinite supply.

and the only other thing they need to fuel ships is usually found on planets that are incapable of supporting humanoid life and so unless the federation has a lot of those moving the inhabitants could kill them and thus would be genocide.

and as for weapons 1) the federation already has encountered and likely studied some formidable ones so I don't see why they wouldn't already have some pretty destructive toys.

2) There wouldn't be much of a conflict with the natives as if the weapons is formidable enough they can respond to the federation trying to force them off their planet by blowing them to kingdom come.

The basis for arguing for removal is:

1. The Baku are not indigenous

Whoopie s@#t.

Okay sense I have explain this again.

If nobody else has claimed something (which seems to be the case here) then moving to an area and claiming it means you own it.

Or is the US not a legitimate country since the people who founded it were descended from europeans who got here on a boat?

And seeing as THERE. WAS. NO. FEDERATION. in 2074 or 2075 they can't really clame the planet now can they.

2. The planet is in Federation space

And yet the Baku were there BEFORE THAT.

4. The Son'a have equal claim to the planet and have every right to remove the Baku, who did the same to them

Well then thats between them not the federation and its NONINTERFERENCE POLOCY, and thats assuming the federation isn't already shooting at them for being Dominion allies.

5. The medical benefits to billions

Aren't really something I'm buying seeing as they already live to 140 or so with their existing technology or WAY LONGER THEN WE DO.

So once again excuse me for not being moved by the supposed plight of wanting to live to 280 instead of just 140. especially since they could probably do that on their own if they got the ware with all to actually research this stuff.

If you're going to go with the "greedy Federation" route, then you can turn that argument right back on the Baku. They're hoarding the resources and denying them to billions.

Except the being a greedy asshole isn't a crime last time I checked and doesn't affect that its their planet and they can do what ever they want with it.

Despite what the pro-removal people think societies don't operate under the principal of "if you have something I want you have to give it to me".

People don't donate to charities or help others because they have to they do it because they want to.

 

[DonIago]

Please cite a source for your claim that the Son'a were merely suffering from old age. If nothing else, the term "toxins" is specficailly used with regards to their medical condition.

I also wouldn't assume that the Federation has remained a monolithic entity between the events of Mirror, Mirror and Insurrection, well over 50 years later and under radically different circumstances...among them, the bloodiest war the Federation has ever witnessed.

 

[BillJ]

I also wouldn't assume that the Federation has remained a monolithic entity between the events of Mirror, Mirror and Insurrection, well over 50 years later and under radically different circumstances...among them, the bloodiest war the Federation has ever witnessed.

Probably a little over one-hundred years. If we go with the events of "Mirror, Mirror" happening in 2267/68 and Star Trek: Insurrection taking place somewhere around 2373/74.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Please cite a source for your claim that the Son'a were merely suffering from old age. If nothing else, the term "toxins" is specficailly used with regards to their medical condition.

well from the memory Alpha article

the Son'a became desperate in their efforts to prolong their lives by any possible means, including genetic manipulation and surgical techniques. The Son'a would make regular visits to facilities where their skin was stretched tight, and accumulated toxins were purged from their bodies.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Son'a

And while diseases are mentioned I'm not seeing anything that doesn't come off as their bodies breaking down from from advanced age.

I also wouldn't assume that the Federation has remained a monolithic entity between the events of Mirror, Mirror and Insurrection, well over 50 years later and under radically different circumstances...among them, the bloodiest war the Federation has ever witnessed.

A group that goes on about being evolved beings who found the concept of wealth quant, and though things like revenge, imperialism, and a fear of death as primitive are suddenly going to go around flat out conquering planets left and right FOR RESOURCES THEY CAN PULL OUT OF THEIR ASSES WHENEVER THEY WANT, yeah thats not farfetched at all

Because thats pretty much the major change in the federation and humanity between TOS and TNG.

 

[sonak]

Make the resource something for building weapons or fueling starships

Except Mirror Mirror already established that the federation doesn't go around taking over planets for starship fuel even back when dilithium couldn't be re-crystalized so its not very believable that they would do so after having the ability to re-crystalize it since not they kind of have an infinite supply.

and the only other thing they need to fuel ships is usually found on planets that are incapable of supporting humanoid life and so unless the federation has a lot of those moving the inhabitants could kill them and thus would be genocide.

and as for weapons 1) the federation already has encountered and likely studied some formidable ones so I don't see why they wouldn't already have some pretty destructive toys.

2) There wouldn't be much of a conflict with the natives as if the weapons is formidable enough they can respond to the federation trying to force them off their planet by blowing them to kingdom come.

The basis for arguing for removal is:

1. The Baku are not indigenous

Whoopie s@#t.

Okay sense I have explain this again.

If nobody else has claimed something (which seems to be the case here) then moving to an area and claiming it means you own it.

Or is the US not a legitimate country since the people who founded it were descended from europeans who got here on a boat?

And seeing as THERE. WAS. NO. FEDERATION. in 2074 or 2075 they can't really clame the planet now can they.



And yet the Baku were there BEFORE THAT.



Well then thats between them not the federation and its NONINTERFERENCE POLOCY, and thats assuming the federation isn't already shooting at them for being Dominion allies.

5. The medical benefits to billions

Aren't really something I'm buying seeing as they already live to 140 or so with their existing technology or WAY LONGER THEN WE DO.

So once again excuse me for not being moved by the supposed plight of wanting to live to 280 instead of just 140. especially since they could probably do that on their own if they got the ware with all to actually research this stuff.

If you're going to go with the "greedy Federation" route, then you can turn that argument right back on the Baku. They're hoarding the resources and denying them to billions.

Except the being a greedy asshole isn't a crime last time I checked and doesn't affect that its their planet and they can do what ever they want with it.

Despite what the pro-removal people think societies don't operate under the principal of "if you have something I want you have to give it to me".

People don't donate to charities or help others because they have to they do it because they want to.

the situation with the Federation during the Dominion War was much more desperate than it was during "mirror, mirror."

It's kind of like Sisko in ITPM. If you're going to try to be ethically pure while fighting a war for your very survival, you're going to lose. Every democratic power has done unethical things for a greater good during war.

Keep in mind that I think that the case for removal would have been clearly justified even WITHOUT a war going on, but it becomes much more so during the Dominion War. Insurrection presents such an absurd scenario of Picard's supposed "idealism" during a major war that it loses any touch with how a government would act during war.

The fact that Picard wasn't court-martialed and jailed for sabotaging the war effort makes one think that the Federation would have deserved to lose.


Also, if you get tired of re-stating the arguments for your position, perhaps you should not distort those with whom you disagree.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

the situation with the Federation during the Dominion War was much more desperate than it was during "mirror, mirror."

It's kind of like Sisko in ITPM. If you're going to try to be ethically pure while fighting a war for your very survival, you're going to lose. Every democratic power has done unethical things for a greater good during war.

Keep in mind that I think that the case for removal would have been clearly justified even WITHOUT a war going on, but it becomes much more so during the Dominion War. Insurrection presents such an absurd scenario of Picard's supposed "idealism" during a major war that it loses any touch with how a government would act during war.

1) This is all based on the assumption that the war is still going on, which we don't know because we don't exactly no when the film takes place.

2) They need dilithium less than in Mirror Mirror since they can just re-crystalize, hell they can probably replicate the stuff now.

And as for deuterium if we go with the Star Trek version I don't think there would be conflict with the Ba'ku since its found on what is basically Hell in planet form (aka why they call them Demon Planets) so they would either be crispy corpses or a life form that is native to that kind of planet.

And of their native to it then like the Tholians (the only race shown so far that would probably survive in that kind of environment) unless their in that environment they shatter.

So unless the feds have more planets available like said hell world they're risking committing genocide.

And we can go on and on about whats necessary for a nation to survive but genocide especially of innocents will never be justified EVER.

So I'm not seeing how the movie works from starship fuel being the central conflict driver since it doesn't ecalty work in the TNG era of the trek verse.

 

[Armored Saint]

Ru'afo was just batshit crazy.

Yeah, but the other Son'a were probably not. The followed him because this first rebellion was not based on bullshit. The older Ba'ku are tyrannical jerks who repress the legitimate desire of the younger to also know some experiences like space travel. The Ba'ku lifestyle is not a tradition, it's the choice of some people who are still alive.
We're not interested in such things. Sojef represses the natural and sane curiosity of his sown.
I am. Anij, village's matriarch, priestess of the Ba'ku philosphy and fucking hypocrite.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The older Ba'ku are tyrannical jerks who repress the legitimate desire of the younger to also know some experiences like space travel.

By giving them the keys to the space ship probably the one or ones that brought them there.

Which points to a big plot hole in the conflict when you think about it.

Well either that or the Ba'ku suck at repressing people.

 

[T'Girl]

This whole "they were never asked" argument seems less and less credible to me and more and more like a rationalization. Is there some reason they couldn't have offered?

Well I don't know about you but if I was dealing with members of a foriegn power who I had found spying on me and then found out they planed to kidnap me to steal my home under some Neoconish might makes right justification I doubt I would want to negotiate with them and would proceed to call the cops to come and lock them up.

Okay Hartzilla2007, what about before that? Why didn't the Baku offer soon after they figured out the medically beneficial properties of the planet?

Offer to the galaxy.

As you yourself noted, the Baku still had the ships they arrived in.

Why didn't they offer?

Really they already were well on their way there I mean hell Gordie 's vision in ways is already better than everyone else's since he can see through freaking walls all they need is a normal vison setting and he's good to go.

Oh, and Geordi's visor also caused him constant pain too.

 

[Armored Saint]

By giving them the keys to the space ship probably the one or ones that brought them there.

They finally had the keys as ostracism sentence. I'm afraid there's too much bitterness on both sides. There's indeed a risk because you and your friends are unable to say mea culpa.

 

[Tosk]

Why didn't the Baku offer soon after they figured out the medically beneficial properties of the planet?

Offer to the galaxy.

Why doesn't the US government offer to end world hunger right now? They could do it with relative ease.

Are you trying to hold the Ba'ku to a higher moral standard than the government of the good ol' U-S of A?

 

[DonIago]

I thought they made a great deal of noise about how they had a higher moral standard, so I don't see why we shouldn't.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Why didn't the Baku offer soon after they figured out the medically beneficial properties of the planet?

Offer to the galaxy.

Why doesn't the US government offer to end world hunger right now? They could do it with relative ease.

Are you trying to hold the Ba'ku to a higher moral standard than the government of the good ol' U-S of A?

Plus who were they going to offer it to the Klingons, yeah thats going to be a good thing for the galaxy.

Other than that they have mysterious Romulans, imperialist douchebag Vulcans, imperialistic Andorians trying to kill the afore mentioned douchebag Vulcans, oh and humans that nearly blew themselves to kingdom come for what was probably a really stupid reason in hind sight.

Not exactly a shining beacon of civilization now is it.

Besides considering how much of a pain in the ass contacting people from the Briar Patch is, that's a lot of trouble to ask a species that just wants to be left alone to go to.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I thought they made a great deal of noise about how they had a higher moral standard, so I don't see why we shouldn't.

Considering one of their big values that were part of their higher moral standard was wanting to be left alone they seemed to be following that well enough.

 

[DonIago]

The US wanted to be left alone during the World Wars. I wouldn't confuse Isolationism with Morality.