You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Lance, Nov 8, 2013.

  1. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    you continue to misrepresent the views of the pro-removal crowd, probably because you realize that if you ACCURATELY represented them, it would be clear that your argument would have nothing to stand on.

    The basis for arguing for removal is:


    1. The Baku are not indigenous

    2. The planet is in Federation space

    3. If the planet isn't in Federation space, then the Son'a or any other Alpha Quadrant power would come along and easily remove a small village of pacifists anyway

    4. The Son'a have equal claim to the planet and have every right to remove the Baku, who did the same to them

    5. The medical benefits to billions outweigh the needs of a small village, any remotely consequentialist form of ethics would find that ethically valid, only an extreme property-rights-based ethics would find for the Baku


    If you're going to go with the "greedy Federation" route, then you can turn that argument right back on the Baku. They're hoarding the resources and denying them to billions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2014
  2. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You know...I don't know whether this could have worked, but if there'd been a prologue in which the E-E effectively stumbled onto the Baku planet shortly after a battle with the Dominion in which they'd taken heavy casualties, and then realized the healing properties of the rings...

    ...then fast forward to the events of the film minus the Son'a. After the E reported on what happened Dougherty instigated his operation.

    This not only removes muddy Son'a issues and replaces them with clear and more relatable examples of how the planet rings are useful, but gives the E a measure of responsibility for the entire situation and possibly ups the potential conflict between crewmembers.

    Hell, you could even have the Son'a show up as a race that's dying and need the concentrated particles to save themselves. They don't want to kill the Baku (well, maybe Ru'afo does), but they sure as hell don't want to die themselves either.
     
  3. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think the given for uses of the rings are pretty clear and relatable already. Look at the scene with Geordi and his regenerated eyes. You can easily extrapolate from that to all the benefits that the planet can bring.


    I think a better route for the movie, if they were going to go for an "insurrection" route was to change the stakes. Make the resource something for building weapons or fueling starships, then make it a pure "federation vs. federation" fight with no Son'a. Make it more like "Avatar" in other words, where the conflict is more balanced.

    "property rights of 600 hypocrites vs. medical benefits to billions" is just not a balanced dilemma.
     
  4. Shaka Zulu

    Shaka Zulu Commodore Commodore

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    Agreed. And, this is how I feel about the use of Khan's Augment blood to relieve Kirk's radiation sickness, or any other disease that might crop up in existence; it shouldn't be thrown away because of 'moral ambiguities' or because it might make the person like Khan (which is a crock of bullshit in itself.)

    Love the mention of Avatar, and also think that Avatar is a better movie than Insurrection in that regard.
     
  5. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Really they already were well on their way there I mean hell Gordie 's vision in ways is already better than everyone else's since he can see through freaking walls all they need is a normal vison setting and he's good to go.

    Besides they could probably cure that and other serious conditions like death if they dusted off the Project Genesis research or researched Graves's brain swaping tech aftrer figuring out how to build android bodies and become effectivly immortal.

    Or hell study the particles and figure out how to synthesizing them without wrecking the planet

    The Son'a were suffering from old age not a disease so thats not an example of the particles doing something other than extending life spans.
     
  6. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Except Mirror Mirror already established that the federation doesn't go around taking over planets for starship fuel even back when dilithium couldn't be re-crystalized so its not very believable that they would do so after having the ability to re-crystalize it since not they kind of have an infinite supply.

    and the only other thing they need to fuel ships is usually found on planets that are incapable of supporting humanoid life and so unless the federation has a lot of those moving the inhabitants could kill them and thus would be genocide.

    and as for weapons 1) the federation already has encountered and likely studied some formidable ones so I don't see why they wouldn't already have some pretty destructive toys.

    2) There wouldn't be much of a conflict with the natives as if the weapons is formidable enough they can respond to the federation trying to force them off their planet by blowing them to kingdom come.

    Whoopie s@#t.

    Okay sense I have explain this again.

    If nobody else has claimed something (which seems to be the case here) then moving to an area and claiming it means you own it.

    Or is the US not a legitimate country since the people who founded it were descended from europeans who got here on a boat?

    And seeing as THERE. WAS. NO. FEDERATION. in 2074 or 2075 they can't really clame the planet now can they.

    And yet the Baku were there BEFORE THAT.

    Well then thats between them not the federation and its NONINTERFERENCE POLOCY, and thats assuming the federation isn't already shooting at them for being Dominion allies.

    Aren't really something I'm buying seeing as they already live to 140 or so with their existing technology or WAY LONGER THEN WE DO.

    So once again excuse me for not being moved by the supposed plight of wanting to live to 280 instead of just 140. especially since they could probably do that on their own if they got the ware with all to actually research this stuff.

    Except the being a greedy asshole isn't a crime last time I checked and doesn't affect that its their planet and they can do what ever they want with it.

    Despite what the pro-removal people think societies don't operate under the principal of "if you have something I want you have to give it to me".

    People don't donate to charities or help others because they have to they do it because they want to.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2014
  7. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Please cite a source for your claim that the Son'a were merely suffering from old age. If nothing else, the term "toxins" is specficailly used with regards to their medical condition.

    I also wouldn't assume that the Federation has remained a monolithic entity between the events of Mirror, Mirror and Insurrection, well over 50 years later and under radically different circumstances...among them, the bloodiest war the Federation has ever witnessed.
     
  8. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Probably a little over one-hundred years. If we go with the events of "Mirror, Mirror" happening in 2267/68 and Star Trek: Insurrection taking place somewhere around 2373/74.
     
  9. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    well from the memory Alpha article

    http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Son'a

    And while diseases are mentioned I'm not seeing anything that doesn't come off as their bodies breaking down from from advanced age.

    A group that goes on about being evolved beings who found the concept of wealth quant, and though things like revenge, imperialism, and a fear of death as primitive are suddenly going to go around flat out conquering planets left and right FOR RESOURCES THEY CAN PULL OUT OF THEIR ASSES WHENEVER THEY WANT, yeah thats not farfetched at all :rolleyes:

    Because thats pretty much the major change in the federation and humanity between TOS and TNG.
     
  10. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    the situation with the Federation during the Dominion War was much more desperate than it was during "mirror, mirror."

    It's kind of like Sisko in ITPM. If you're going to try to be ethically pure while fighting a war for your very survival, you're going to lose. Every democratic power has done unethical things for a greater good during war.

    Keep in mind that I think that the case for removal would have been clearly justified even WITHOUT a war going on, but it becomes much more so during the Dominion War. Insurrection presents such an absurd scenario of Picard's supposed "idealism" during a major war that it loses any touch with how a government would act during war.

    The fact that Picard wasn't court-martialed and jailed for sabotaging the war effort makes one think that the Federation would have deserved to lose.


    Also, if you get tired of re-stating the arguments for your position, perhaps you should not distort those with whom you disagree.
     
  11. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    1) This is all based on the assumption that the war is still going on, which we don't know because we don't exactly no when the film takes place.

    2) They need dilithium less than in Mirror Mirror since they can just re-crystalize, hell they can probably replicate the stuff now.

    And as for deuterium if we go with the Star Trek version I don't think there would be conflict with the Ba'ku since its found on what is basically Hell in planet form (aka why they call them Demon Planets) so they would either be crispy corpses or a life form that is native to that kind of planet.

    And of their native to it then like the Tholians (the only race shown so far that would probably survive in that kind of environment) unless their in that environment they shatter.

    So unless the feds have more planets available like said hell world they're risking committing genocide.

    And we can go on and on about whats necessary for a nation to survive but genocide especially of innocents will never be justified EVER.

    So I'm not seeing how the movie works from starship fuel being the central conflict driver since it doesn't ecalty work in the TNG era of the trek verse.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2014
  12. Armored Saint

    Armored Saint Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yeah, but the other Son'a were probably not. The followed him because this first rebellion was not based on bullshit. The older Ba'ku are tyrannical jerks who repress the legitimate desire of the younger to also know some experiences like space travel. The Ba'ku lifestyle is not a tradition, it's the choice of some people who are still alive.
    We're not interested in such things. Sojef represses the natural and sane curiosity of his sown.
    I am. Anij, village's matriarch, priestess of the Ba'ku philosphy and fucking hypocrite.
     
  13. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    By giving them the keys to the space ship probably the one or ones that brought them there.

    Which points to a big plot hole in the conflict when you think about it.

    Well either that or the Ba'ku suck at repressing people.
     
  14. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Okay Hartzilla2007, what about before that? Why didn't the Baku offer soon after they figured out the medically beneficial properties of the planet?

    Offer to the galaxy.

    As you yourself noted, the Baku still had the ships they arrived in.

    Why didn't they offer?

    Oh, and Geordi's visor also caused him constant pain too.

    :)
     
  15. Armored Saint

    Armored Saint Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    They finally had the keys as ostracism sentence. I'm afraid there's too much bitterness on both sides. There's indeed a risk because you and your friends are unable to say mea culpa.
     
  16. Tosk

    Tosk Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Why doesn't the US government offer to end world hunger right now? They could do it with relative ease.

    Are you trying to hold the Ba'ku to a higher moral standard than the government of the good ol' U-S of A? ;)
     
  17. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I thought they made a great deal of noise about how they had a higher moral standard, so I don't see why we shouldn't. :p
     
  18. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Plus who were they going to offer it to the Klingons, yeah thats going to be a good thing for the galaxy.

    Other than that they have mysterious Romulans, imperialist douchebag Vulcans, imperialistic Andorians trying to kill the afore mentioned douchebag Vulcans, oh and humans that nearly blew themselves to kingdom come for what was probably a really stupid reason in hind sight.

    Not exactly a shining beacon of civilization now is it.

    Besides considering how much of a pain in the ass contacting people from the Briar Patch is, that's a lot of trouble to ask a species that just wants to be left alone to go to.
     
  19. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Considering one of their big values that were part of their higher moral standard was wanting to be left alone they seemed to be following that well enough.
     
  20. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The US wanted to be left alone during the World Wars. I wouldn't confuse Isolationism with Morality.