Just seeing what the opinions are when comparing the best of the original series cast movies against the best TNG movie.
Wrath of Kahn vs first contact:which is better?
- Thread starter buckeyenation
- Start date
TWOK, hands down. First Contact doesn't even compare. In fact, the only Trek movie that is in the same league as TWOK is TUC, and I honestly can't decide which is better between those two.
The Wrath of Khan easily beats out First Contact for me.
First Contact makes two critical errors:
- Turns the Borg into generic zombie flick enemies.
- Tries turning Picard into an action hero.
The Wrath of Khan feels like a natural evolution of the characters.
I like First Contact better, but they're different types of films, really.
The Wrath of Khan. It's been quite some time since I saw it, but it sticks in the mind very well. First Contact isn't in the same league.
I love First Contact to death; it's one of my all-time favorite films. It's my favorite Trek film. But from an objective point of view? Khan is superior. It's more approachable to non-Trekkies and really cemented the Trek brand as a franchise.
First Contact is certainly exceptional, and stands out as the best 'modern' (1990-present) Trek film, best of the TNG films by far, and another great film that has the ability to be approachable by non-Trekkies. But it's got some issues that detract from it. There is debate on FC's greatness; no one argues with TWOK's greatness but the most die-hard purists.
When people talk superior sequels, or do film greatness comparisons, it's a prime example. It's the "Godfather, Part II" of Trek films.
First Contact is certainly exceptional, and stands out as the best 'modern' (1990-present) Trek film, best of the TNG films by far, and another great film that has the ability to be approachable by non-Trekkies. But it's got some issues that detract from it. There is debate on FC's greatness; no one argues with TWOK's greatness but the most die-hard purists.
When people talk superior sequels, or do film greatness comparisons, it's a prime example. It's the "Godfather, Part II" of Trek films.
The Wrath of Khan, and the comparison is instructive. Ultimately the TNG films, while often very enjoyable, are little more than action-adventure romps with nothing especially deep to say, certainly about its characters. The TOS films, on the other hand, are about something, and do what Roddenberry always wanted Trek to do, namely say something about what it is to be human, through its characters. TWOK, thematically, is rich, nuanced and intelligent. FC is, the Ahab scene and some superficial observations about the dangers of historical mythologising aside, about a group of robots trying to take over a starship. There's no comparison.
Commander Rabbit
Commander
TWOK is the better film, for all the reasons cited here and others, but I enjoyed First Contact more.
Not as bad as the Genesis device and the Reliant not realizing they had the wrong planet....
Picard didn't act like Bruce Willis in First Contact. Except for swinging on a cable toward the end, he didn't devitate from any of the actions he showed on TNG. We've seen him climb a cliff on a Cardassian world, wield a phaser rifle, pretended to be a thug by punching out Riker and shoot aliens from the future Bond style.
As for the Borg, "generic zombie flick" isn't the issue. The introduction of the Queen was, at least the way she acted...
Wrath of Khan is way better than First Contact. I never found any of the TNG movies to be really good, but First Contact is perhaps the only one that is watchable, which is saying a lot considering I love the TNG series.
- Spacewalk
- Holo-deck
- End in Engineering
- Face-off with Worf
The way these scenes played were all out of character for Picard.
As for the wrong planet: I think we all seem to forget just how large a star system is. These bodies aren't just lined up in a row. So if the physical characteristics of Ceti Alpha V matched those known about Ceti Alpha VI, it is possible a mistake could be made. Then there's pure fact that sensor Treknology has never been consistent. When you take all that into account: the error never bothered me.
I enjoy First Contact (probably my favourite of the Next Gen movies), but I think Khan is the better film
FC is a fun romp for me, but TWoK actually feels important to me, and consequently wins.
I think it's possible that the Mutara Nebula sequence and Spock's death are actually considered "iconic" at this point.
FC has the opening zoom-out, the too-briefly-shown battle at the beginning and the spacewalk, but I'm not sure any of those are on the same level.
Horner's penchant for borrowing from himself aside, I also have to give TWoK points for having the better score, and one that IMO is eminently relistenable. Not saying FC's is bad, just saying I consider TWoK's better...though I've never forgiven TNG for ripping off TMP's opening music either, to be fair.
I think it's possible that the Mutara Nebula sequence and Spock's death are actually considered "iconic" at this point.
FC has the opening zoom-out, the too-briefly-shown battle at the beginning and the spacewalk, but I'm not sure any of those are on the same level.
Horner's penchant for borrowing from himself aside, I also have to give TWoK points for having the better score, and one that IMO is eminently relistenable. Not saying FC's is bad, just saying I consider TWoK's better...though I've never forgiven TNG for ripping off TMP's opening music either, to be fair.
Well, in this case I go for FC since there's no Trek movie about a guy named "Kahn".
Anywho, they're equal for me but TWOK is considered better because it was around then that the TOS characters finally started to become real characters and not the archetypes they were portrayed as before. TMP started this, but people didn't really get it until TWOK.
Also, it set further precedent in that this was the first time the Enterprise took real damage, introduced new characters, expanded the Trekverse far more than it had ever been shown before, and gave the characters a realistic story of growing old in the world and dealing with consequences of their youth (Khan, David).
With FC, most of these concepts were covered in TNG proper and the cast was already big as it was. Plus the characters already were real characters to start with so there wasn't some colossal change up like there was in the TOS movies.
Anywho, they're equal for me but TWOK is considered better because it was around then that the TOS characters finally started to become real characters and not the archetypes they were portrayed as before. TMP started this, but people didn't really get it until TWOK.
Also, it set further precedent in that this was the first time the Enterprise took real damage, introduced new characters, expanded the Trekverse far more than it had ever been shown before, and gave the characters a realistic story of growing old in the world and dealing with consequences of their youth (Khan, David).
With FC, most of these concepts were covered in TNG proper and the cast was already big as it was. Plus the characters already were real characters to start with so there wasn't some colossal change up like there was in the TOS movies.
B.S.
All Picard did in that spacewalk was walking down to the deflect dish, input some commands and shot some borg. How is that out of character compared to his actions in that cave in Chains of Command?
As for the holodeck, it's human nature. Picard was losing his ship to the borg and its understandable after what he went through in BOBW. It's silly to say it's out of character for him when we never saw him in that kind of situtation. Everybody slips and blows up. It was a very stressful time for Picard. Even Spock lost his cool more than once, both on the show and in the movies.
As for the Enginnering in the end, the only action he did was swinging around, but what would you have him do when all of that gas was on the floor? He was very calm the whole time, talking to the queen and the data. He didn't pull a Bruce Willis in that scene.
As for the face off with Worf- so what? Worf questioned his judgement. Picard was taking the whole situtation personal which is understandable seeing what the Borg did to him. Picard doesn't always make the best judgement. Nobody does.
As for the planet, They should have known how far from the sun the planet should be. They should already have the orbital positions calculated in the computer. If we are able to calculate where the planets would be at a given date, surely a 23rd Century starship computer would be able too.
^You're assuming anyone had fully charted the Ceti Alpha system prior to TWoK. Even if you assume the Enterprise did originally in Space Seed, there's obvious reasons why they may not have fully disclosed their information to Starfleet beyond saying "There's 6 planets and one of them has characteristics which you'll later decide make it a good candidate for Gensis testing."
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