Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God status?

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

Usually in an absolute system there'll be a hierarchy of morals, where certain imperatives will trump others at certain times--such as preventing suffering trumping noninterference. But a relativist might not have it in them to help.

In this case - what's the hierarchy?
I asked before - where'e the boundary between 'you can't interfere to enforce you morals' and ' you must interfere in order for your morals to mean anything, to be more than pointless mental masturbation'?

Which moral imperatives don't jutify intervention and which do?

But with alien species, there can in my mind be no moral absolutes. Different species would have a wholly different nature and being. The Founders care about order (even Odo admitted that in the end it's what he cared about most) since it's their nature. Klingons are violent since it's their nature. So there can be few commonalities, if there are different bases.

Also, moral relativism doesn't have to mean (and perhaps doesn't usually) that anything goes. It can and perhaps more often means that a single morality has many different perspectives, or is viewed differently by different societies or people.

"a single morality has many different perspectives, or is viewed differently by different societies or people"

Only - that doesn't work like that; it's wishful thinking. There's no single morality viewed by different perspectives.
There are fundamentally contradictory morals.
I gave the example with the borg - from their POV, what they're doing is moral and just - that's fundamentally contradictory from your morals.


"moral relativism doesn't have to mean (and perhaps doesn't usually) that anything goes."

Actually, that's exactly what moral relativism means. If you're following moral relativism to the letter, you have no right to interfere, to stry and stop the borg from killing you (the entire humanity) and countless others.
If and when you interfere, you are following moral absolutist precepts - you consider your morals preferable/superior to the borg's.

 

[neozeks]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

Doing so would violate the Prime Directive.

And who is the Federation to impose its own values on others? The Klingons and Romulans practice slavery also. The Cardassians treated the Bajorans as slaves. Why not force them to abandon it?

Well, I think the Federation should influence races like Klingons etc. to abandon slavery. But you have to be pragmatic. Using force against them would be counter-productive and cause more suffering than the very thing you want to eliminate.

But if you've already fought a terrible bloody war to ultimate victory, I say Prime Directive-Shmime Directive. They've already meddled in your affairs with disastrous consequences, you have every right to meddle in theirs to stop them from repeating it.

I asked before - where'e the boundary between 'you can't interfere to enforce you morals' and ' you must interfere in order for your morals to mean anything, to be more than pointless mental masturbation'?

Which moral imperatives don't jutify intervention and which do?

There's no clear cut answer. Also, I think you're mixing up terms. It's not relativism vs absolutism, it's relativism vs universalism. And universalism doesn't mean you're morals are superior, just that there do exist some moral rules that are 'right'. You strive for them but it doesn't mean your current morals are automatically right, there's always the possibility you are wrong. So I'd set a few guidelines in order to avoid the bad sides of universalism: 1) Always question what you believe is universally moral, don't be dogmatic. 2) Learn everything you can about the situation before acting, don't jump to conclusions. 3) Like I said before, evaluate whether your actions actually cause more harm than good.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

neozeks

Both moral absolutism or moral universalism - mentioned by you - are quite similar, in terms of effects, at least.

The main difference is that a moral universalist will wonder from time to time whether his values are correct, while an absolutist not.
However, both will act by interfering in other cultures' actions.

About your guidelines:
"So I'd set a few guidelines in order to avoid the bad sides of universalism: 1) Always question what you believe is universally moral, don't be dogmatic. 2) Learn everything you can about the situation before acting, don't jump to conclusions. 3) Like I said before, evaluate whether your actions actually cause more harm than good."

Well, such rules must, indeed, be followed.
The problem is they're too general - by using them, you can justify interference or non-interference in almost any situation. Thus, they're insufficient.

 

[Marie1]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

So, in short, no. Some conquered worlds may have some brief rebellions when they hear about it, but they won't give it up, and the Vorta and Jem'Hadar won't feel that way either.

Yes, Marie1:
It seems the jem'hadar are condemned to be cannon-fodder, expendable slaves who are happy to be so.

Only the ones that should've been smarter, faster and better than you pathetic alpha quad species.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

So, in short, no. Some conquered worlds may have some brief rebellions when they hear about it, but they won't give it up, and the Vorta and Jem'Hadar won't feel that way either.

Yes, Marie1:
It seems the jem'hadar are condemned to be cannon-fodder, expendable slaves who are happy to be so.

Only the ones that should've been smarter, faster and better than you pathetic alpha quad species.

Should have been - in theory, according to the founder's blueprints for jem'hadar harvests.
In practice, the jem'hadar fell short of this - as the dominion war testified - notice how, during the war, the jem'hadar only won when they had vast numerical superiority.

And, of course, as we all know, the jem'hadar are the founders' bitches and happy to be so. Which nullifies whatever cool points they may receive.

PS - Also: smarter? really?

 

[Marie1]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

Yes, Marie1:
It seems the jem'hadar are condemned to be cannon-fodder, expendable slaves who are happy to be so.

Only the ones that should've been smarter, faster and better than you pathetic alpha quad species.

Should have been - in theory, according to the founder's blueprints for jem'hadar harvests.
In practice, the jem'hadar fell short of this - as the dominion war testified - notice how, during the war, the jem'hadar only won when they had vast numerical superiority.

And, of course, as we all know, the jem'hadar are the founders' bitches and happy to be so. Which nullifies whatever cool points they may receive.

PS - Also: smarter? really?

The Jem'hadar that the Federation fought against were very, very young. So yes, a Federation officer with several years of experience should be smarter than someone who is 2 weeks old. But for the Founder telling the Jem'hadar to stand down- you guys would've had your asses handed to you. And that's just sad.

Our shipyards were at 100%, you guys were barely cranking out ships. I mean, come on! You've got the Romulans, the Borg, the Klingons- you have no excuse for your crappy weapons, small fleets, (and way to leave Betazed while on a training exercise- that was a stroke of brilliance!) and general silliness.

And furthermore, the Vorta may think we're slaves, and treat us like that, and we'll humour them if we want- but we're 100x the soldiers you will ever be, and we can probably take apart, clean, and put back together any of your ships or weapons in a tenth the time it takes anyone from the Federation, and it'll be better than it was before. Owned.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

Marie1

Haven't you read?:
"And, of course, as we all know, the jem'hadar are the founders' bitches and happy to be so. Which nullifies whatever cool points they may receive."

Also:
"the Romulans, the Borg, the Klingons" - the borg? Since then?

Plus - the jem'hadar slaves weren't the ones building the ships; indeed, they were established as not very technically minded in general. Even a vorta admitted the federation engineers' superiority.

 

[Marie1]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

Marie1

Haven't you read?:
"And, of course, as we all know, the jem'hadar are the founders' bitches and happy to be so. Which nullifies whatever cool points they may receive."

Also:
"the Romulans, the Borg, the Klingons" - the borg? Since then?

Plus - the jem'hadar slaves weren't the ones building the ships; indeed, they were established as not very technically minded in general. Even a vorta admitted the federation engineers' superiority.

I read it... and I dismissed it as the opinion of a silly human who is about to be pwned.

I'm confused by your part about the dangerous species I mentioned- elaborate. Why after all the dangers the Feds have encountered shouldn't they improve their technology, weapons and tactics?

The Jem'hadar are very, very good technologically, and very fast learners from the time they are young. The Vorta was probably lying. Watch those Dominion eps a bit closer, esp. The Jem'Hadar, and One Little Ship.

And if they are dumb slaves, you should pity them.

Since before long, you'll be in an internment camp, you'll have something to do.

Also, I haven't posted this in a while.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

If you ask me, the Vorta and Jem'Hadar are both victims of a crime against sentience. (Obviously I intend this to equate with "crime against humanity.") And from a religious perspective I see the Founders' sin as being even BEYOND taking physical life. They have deprived these beings of choice and forced them to go to their deaths without any ability to choose otherwise unless a genetic quirk happens to crop up. As for the Vorta, yeah, they act like slime a lot of the time, but they are also victims of a crime in that they can't choose to act in a more forthright manner unless there's a genetic accident.

Had the treaty held any REAL force, I think the Dominion should've been forced to un-program those species and let them choose their own fates. Of course, the treaty we're looking at is really a detente, not a defeat, so as usual the Federation gets completely and utterly screwed at the negotiating table. (You'd think they would've learned something from the Federation-Cardassian Treaty, another worthless POS.)

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

Nerys Ghemor
There is a large difference between the cardassian treaty and the dominion treaty:

The federation was in a very good position to continue the war with the cardassians and secure far more favourable terms.
Not so much with the dominion. The federation&co's ability to defeat the domminion in the gamma quadrant is highly doubtful.

Marie1
Pity the jem'hadar? Why not?
But pitying the jem'hadar is not the same as thinking the jem'hadar are cool. It's the contrary, actually.
The jem'hadar are PATHETIC: they are the founders' bitches and happy to be so.

And whoever becomes prisoner of the jem'hadar becomes so because the founders wanted it, not the jem'hadar - they are literally instruments, cogs in the dominion war machine.

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

Both the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar are the Founder's bitches to my way of thinking. You could argue that the Vorta have more autonomy and aren't cannon fodder like the Jem'Hadar, that they get to come back and be cloned a bunch of times, but both species have suffered the loss of personal freedoms under the Founder's rule. They are genetically engineered to believe the Founders are gods and can't disobey them unless they are "defective" (in wich case they're terminated). The Jem'Hadar have no females, no sleep, and (after their "childhoods") no food and drink. The Vorta eat, drink, sleep, etc., but have no families or lovers (I would assume from cloning-as-reproduction method). What is basic to so many humanoid races has been denied to both species under the Founder's rule. I don't see the Federation intefering with that, but what I could see is Odo, upon returning to his people and healing the link, trying to change things for the Vorta and Jem'Hadar and give them some free will.

 

[Marie1]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

If you ask me, the Vorta and Jem'Hadar are both victims of a crime against sentience. (Obviously I intend this to equate with "crime against humanity.") And from a religious perspective I see the Founders' sin as being even BEYOND taking physical life. They have deprived these beings of choice and forced them to go to their deaths without any ability to choose otherwise unless a genetic quirk happens to crop up. As for the Vorta, yeah, they act like slime a lot of the time, but they are also victims of a crime in that they can't choose to act in a more forthright manner unless there's a genetic accident.

Had the treaty held any REAL force, I think the Dominion should've been forced to un-program those species and let them choose their own fates. Of course, the treaty we're looking at is really a detente, not a defeat, so as usual the Federation gets completely and utterly screwed at the negotiating table. (You'd think they would've learned something from the Federation-Cardassian Treaty, another worthless POS.)

Good point, but as you point out, the treaty had no teeth. There's always the chance O'Brien's fear would come true- they'd travel the galaxy trashing it.

they are the founders' [/B]bitches and happy to be so.

And whoever becomes prisoner of the jem'hadar becomes so because the founders wanted it, not the jem'hadar - they are literally instruments, cogs in the dominion war machine.

So black/white people who have no compassion, is what I'm replying to here. Okay.

They're the least pathetic Trek species, brilliant and powerful and without fear. So they're programmed to believe the Founders are their leaders- the Founders themselves are very powerful beings. Enough Jem'hadar have left, escaped, and had given speeches about it for us to know that they're very self aware- they know how they feel about the Founders, some have choosen to leave, and some stay because it's their duty.

Having them be deprogrammed would probably lead to the death of... everyone...

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

Nerys Ghemor
There is a large difference between the cardassian treaty and the dominion treaty:

The federation was in a very good position to continue the war with the cardassians and secure far more favourable terms.
Not so much with the dominion. The federation&co's ability to defeat the domminion in the gamma quadrant is highly doubtful.

Given that, the Federation should've gotten MUCH better terms with the Cardassians, yet they didn't. As for the Dominion, I think they just got screwed because they never really DEFEATED them.

As to the Jem'Hadar being pathetic--I would use it in the more archaic sense of the word: they are victims of the Founders, in my opinion. They have their good points, but they are slaves in one of the most awful ways one can imagine short of Borg assimilation. Personally, I feel sorry for them. IF genetic deprogramming could be done, and they were given a choice...I actually wonder if the Klingons could help them in building a society that would last them until they were no more. (OR, last longer if Jem'Hadar females were re-created as part of the reprogramming to give them a choice in how to continue a species.)

(I DON'T admire the Klingons, but still, of the Trek allies, that's the most likely.)

 

[Marie1]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

Nerys Ghemor
There is a large difference between the cardassian treaty and the dominion treaty:

The federation was in a very good position to continue the war with the cardassians and secure far more favourable terms.
Not so much with the dominion. The federation&co's ability to defeat the domminion in the gamma quadrant is highly doubtful.

Given that, the Federation should've gotten MUCH better terms with the Cardassians, yet they didn't. As for the Dominion, I think they just got screwed because they never really DEFEATED them.

As to the Jem'Hadar being pathetic--I would use it in the more archaic sense of the word: they are victims of the Founders, in my opinion. They have their good points, but they are slaves in one of the most awful ways one can imagine short of Borg assimilation. Personally, I feel sorry for them. IF genetic deprogramming could be done, and they were given a choice...I actually wonder if the Klingons could help them in building a society that would last them until they were no more. (OR, last longer if Jem'Hadar females were re-created as part of the reprogramming to give them a choice in how to continue a species.)

(I DON'T admire the Klingons, but still, of the Trek allies, that's the most likely.)

The Federation is good at getting lousy treaties. I don't know why they're so bad at it- treaties with the Romulans, Cardassians, Dominion all seem so... odd!

Since the Jem'Hadar were specifically engineered as warriors, I personally wouldn't reengineer more of them to make females and perpetuate the race... if they could reengineer ones who were already embryos, then maybe- as long as they didn't become a commodity.

I agree with your historical use of pathetic, genetically engineering people to be slaves, to view you as a god, is immoral, engineering those people to die for you, even more so. In doing so, they created a very, very powerful, dangerous and self aware race that makes for a very complicated situation.

I'm not sure I'd choose the Klingons to help them- the Klingons have a sense of honour too, but still have a list as long as your arm for acceptable reasons to kill individuals. When the Jem'Hadar are not at war, they are effective engineers, as demonstrated in "To the Death" and "One Little Ship" so I think they'd be very useful on that end.

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

When the Jem'Hadar are not at war, they are effective engineers, as demonstrated in "To the Death" and "One Little Ship" so I think they'd be very useful on that end.

And yet, in "Rocks and Shoals," Keevan offers the Feds their communications array or whatever it was, because he feels they will have much better luck repairing it than the Jem'Hadar. I was always under the impression that the Jem'Hadar were the "brawn" and the Vorta were the "brains." Not that the Jems were stupid - I'm sure they had great hand-eye coordination, excelled at military strategy, etc. - but they seemed pretty limited in what they could do. I figured the Jem'Hadar did the fighting and the Vorta did everything else; engineering, science, research, administration, negotiation, diplomacy ... but maybe I missed something.

 

[SoM]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

But if you've already fought a terrible bloody war to ultimate victory, I say Prime Directive-Shmime Directive. They've already meddled in your affairs with disastrous consequences, you have every right to meddle in theirs to stop them from repeating it.

But they didn't fight to "ultimate victory". The Fed/Klingon/Romulan alliance ground the Dom/Breen/Cardassian alliance to q messy, near-pyhrric, victory. Of the DBC alliance, only the Cardassians took catastrophic losses; while the Dominion's Gamma Quadrant territories were virtually untouched by the war. Therefore, the FKR alliance's ability to make any major changes in the GQ are consequently NIL.

Yes, they can force a Dominion withdrawal from the AQ, and the Prophets can stop them coming back, but once the AQ withdrawal is done and the Founders are cured... then what?

They'd have to go to war all over again, in the Dominion's areas of greatest strength, to militarily impose any GQ changes. I doubt even the Klingons have the appetite for THAT war after the losses the FKR alliance suffered in the AQ campaign.

 

[Marie1]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

When the Jem'Hadar are not at war, they are effective engineers, as demonstrated in "To the Death" and "One Little Ship" so I think they'd be very useful on that end.

And yet, in "Rocks and Shoals," Keevan offers the Feds their communications array or whatever it was, because he feels they will have much better luck repairing it than the Jem'Hadar. I was always under the impression that the Jem'Hadar were the "brawn" and the Vorta were the "brains." Not that the Jems were stupid - I'm sure they had great hand-eye coordination, excelled at military strategy, etc. - but they seemed pretty limited in what they could do. I figured the Jem'Hadar did the fighting and the Vorta did everything else; engineering, science, research, administration, negotiation, diplomacy ... but maybe I missed something.

The Jem'Hadar in the episode you were referring to were suffering from severe withdrawl- note Remata'klan was already twitching. They were dying, so doing anything was pretty hard.

The Vorta are not really engineers, well... a little, but a lot of the ship building etc. seems to have been done by Jem'Hadar and other "Dominion" species be the allied or conquered.

The Vorta may oversee, and research, but the Jem'Hadar do the work, and once they learn it... they've got it.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

The Federation is good at getting lousy treaties. I don't know why they're so bad at it- treaties with the Romulans, Cardassians, Dominion all seem so... odd!

I think they're bad at it because they have this idea that making yourself look as small and conciliatory as possible will get you loyal friends. Not in the real world--it just gets you screwed over.

Since the Jem'Hadar were specifically engineered as warriors, I personally wouldn't reengineer more of them to make females and perpetuate the race... if they could reengineer ones who were already embryos, then maybe- as long as they didn't become a commodity.

Which means eventually the entire race would go extinct...which is definitely not a choice that should be made unless the re-engineered Jem'Hadar go with it. But if they're put back to a normal state instead of as slaves...I think they're going to want women and families and everything else that goes with a normal existence.

I'm not sure I'd choose the Klingons to help them- the Klingons have a sense of honour too, but still have a list as long as your arm for acceptable reasons to kill individuals.

Oh, I don't like Klingons either. But I don't know who else they would relate to, in the AQ, and since the Romulans can't be trusted and THEY would hate even reformed Cardassians...there's really no other alternative.

Then again...maybe the Andorians! THAT might actually WORK!

the FKR alliance

You might want another abbreviation there.

 

[Marie1]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

The Federation is good at getting lousy treaties. I don't know why they're so bad at it- treaties with the Romulans, Cardassians, Dominion all seem so... odd!

I think they're bad at it because they have this idea that making yourself look as small and conciliatory as possible will get you loyal friends. Not in the real world--it just gets you screwed over.

True- but how many of your own people must die because of before you clue in?!?! Esp. the cloak/phase technology- even as a hiding safety thing!

Since the Jem'Hadar were specifically engineered as warriors, I personally wouldn't reengineer more of them to make females and perpetuate the race... if they could reengineer ones who were already embryos, then maybe- as long as they didn't become a commodity.

Which means eventually the entire race would go extinct...which is definitely not a choice that should be made unless the re-engineered Jem'Hadar go with it. But if they're put back to a normal state instead of as slaves...I think they're going to want women and families and everything else that goes with a normal existence.

It kinda depends... cuz... if I found out I had been re-engineered solely for the purpose of reproducing with ex-enslaved soldiers who are artificial in the first place. I'd be creeped out, you know? I guess it's a matter of perspective though, they may indeed want families and such...I guess it depends on how much the freed Jem'Hadar change -whether they're happy doing normal things, or if they still itch to fight anything that moves- if part of their genetics is taking from a naturally very aggressive species.

I'm not sure I'd choose the Klingons to help them- the Klingons have a sense of honour too, but still have a list as long as your arm for acceptable reasons to kill individuals.

Oh, I don't like Klingons either. But I don't know who else they would relate to, in the AQ, and since the Romulans can't be trusted and THEY would hate even reformed Cardassians...there's really no other alternative.

Then again...maybe the Andorians! THAT might actually WORK!

OOOOO!!! I think you might be on to something.
And hey, the Andorian race is dying, soooo... never mind, I'm creeping myself out now!

 

[neozeks]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

But if you've already fought a terrible bloody war to ultimate victory, I say Prime Directive-Shmime Directive. They've already meddled in your affairs with disastrous consequences, you have every right to meddle in theirs to stop them from repeating it.

But they didn't fight to "ultimate victory".

I know, I was just talking about a hipothetical ultimate victory scenario, in response to this:

Look at a different way. Had starfleet been in a position to take the Founders home world - would they have considered making the Founders "mortal"? Is it something Starfleet would do? Would it fit in with Gene's philosophy of Federation values?