Spoilers Wonder Woman - Grading & Discussion

[mos6507]

It also seems to me that Gal's pretty smile and overall presence was 'male gaze' enough without having to resort to camera tricks lingering over certain parts of her anatomy.

You mean like this Michael Bay cheesecake from Transformers? When I saw this shot below I was shocked because I thought this kind of filmmaking went out with Baywatch but now we've got a big-budget Baywatch only the trailer for it seems to focus more on Zac Efron's sixpack than the girls. Equal-opportunity exploitation I guess.

have mixed feelings about the 'above average' Steve Trevor scene.

I like it because it's old-fashioned innuendo, which is kind of a lost art these days. Compare that humor to Drax on-the-nose penis joke in Guardians 2. Sexuality in movies has become way too direct and literal. I treat innuendo as approaching poetry. It's an art, albeit a juvenile one.

Having the setting be 100 years ago and a desire to keep the anachronisms to a minimum meant the characters could not talk and act the way they do today. As a result, Pine's Trevor is far more of a gentleman than, let's say, Pine's Kirk, who is basically the same wise-ass archetype as Star Lord.

She doesn't have to pretend to be a man to be strong and capable.

I think this film is in a no-win situation where people will always find offense with the characterization because Wonder Woman is such a powerful symbol. It's the same way with Superman and the whole Zod neck-snapping and "no one stays good in this world" attitude. How we want these two to behave is wrapped up in our own individual ideologies and moralities.

This film presents sort of a mathematical "average" between the extreme of the ultra-feminine sex symbol of Lynda Carter and the grim warrior archetype from Xena. That's why it's going to be such a magnet for critics since compromise in a polarized world winds up giving neither side all of what it wants.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

Drax's question about Ego's penis is a fair question. Drax was raised in a more sexual liberating family than Peter Quill or Gamora. I think the humor in the situation came from the culture clash.

The success of this film is great news for Gadot, Pine, and women directors. For the DC film universe, another critic and customer darling might wash away the bad taste left by the other three films which came before Wonder Woman. Here is to Justice League's success. (Toast)

 

[mos6507]

Drax's question about Ego's penis is a fair question. Drax was raised in a more sexual liberating family than Peter Quill or Gamora. I think the humor in the situation came from the culture clash.

Drax was raised that way as a contrivance to allow James Gunn to insert the kind of jokes he thinks are funny into the film. The whole GotG vibe reflects his sensibilities which are common to, let's say, the writers of the Big Bang Theory or Two and a Half Men, where the infamous semen joke in the first film was plagiarized. Don't get me wrong. I like GotG, but I don't think I'll ever be fully comfortable with the fact that the superhero genre which is supposed to be a kiddie genre has G->NC-17 grade content in it. I wish filmmakers only put what was necessary in. Most of the swearing is unnecessary and the sexuality that needs to be there can be softened via entendres/innuendo. Deadpool and Logan type affairs can remain the exception to the rule. I think Doctor Strange was the worst offender on this count, though, because I think he just casually drops a couple S or F bombs for no good reason.

I was just bringing all this up to make a point of contrast.

If there's one thing about Wonder Woman that makes it bold, is the tone. Aside from the obligatory Snyder 300-esque "let's all gorge on the slo-mo action-porn of killing people with arrows, bullets, and swords", the tone is really more late 70s/early 80s family-friendly. I don't feel anything was really lost in doing this, and really, it seems kind of refreshing.

I've been wondering how many more cookie-cutter superhero movies the world can sustain before people just get tired of formula. You have to mix it up somehow. Not that WW doesn't suffer from doing some things by-the-numbers, but the degree to which it exercised restraint on adult content (graphically depicted gore, language, direct sex talk) is refreshing. I saw the film with my daughter and even in the above-average scene I didn't feel awkward about it. Everything down to how the angles were framed was very old-school modest.

 

[LJones41]

Seeing Wonder Woman made me want to re-watch BvS again. Much better the second time around without all the hype and expectations. The special effects at the end with the battle vs Doomsday are great. I think what diminished BvS was the Lex Luthor portrayal being too weak.

You know, when I heard that Jesse Eisenberg had been cast as Lex Luthor, I thought it was a big mistake. I had no idea that I would be so impressed by his performance. Superficially witty and quirky, yet dangerous and pathological in the end. I was impressed.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Its held back a little bit by the weak villains and a few too many scenes in the dark, but besides that I don't really have anything to complain about. I ended up paying for myself, my dad and my brother to go because neither of them were that interested (they both disliked Man of Steel, the last DC movie they watched, a lot and my Dad is only a very casual fan of this type of movie) but my brother liked it and my Dad really liked it, saying its the best movie we'd seen since TFA.

One thing I'm a bit worried about for a sequel is if people who are won over by WW but are more casual fans of this stuff (like my Dad) go to Justice League because she's in it, but get turned off by it being another Snyder movie and that makes some people completely skip WW 2. It really sucks that we're getting another Snyder movie right after this.

You do realize that Man of Steel & Dawn of Justice were very successful films? Snyder set DC movies on the right course: serious and not the G.I. Joe cartoon-like jokiness (or consequence free nature) of most of the MCU, which render most of the latter franchise as forgettable popcorn movies with the exception of Captain America:The First Avenger & Captain America: The Winter Soldier, and part of the third Cap film--far and away the best MCU movies because they forced the lead characters to deal with serious issues and are fairly, and necessarily grim plots of sacrifice, betrayal, loss and morality. All of the hallmarks of the aforementioned DC films.

Wonder Woman is a foundation (chronologically), but it all points back to the established future--the films set in the present day. Gone are the horrible days of Tim Burton's freakshows (and miscasting), Schumacher's idiot/kiddieland, or the decline of a series seen in Superman III. This is a unified DC film universe in tone, message and effect...and its working. Any attempt to mirror the quip-heavy, cartoon action of various MCU films would finish DC's movie world building. They can save that kind of handling for WB's animated division aimed at a very young audience.

 

[KennyB]

Wow---someone gave this flick an F on the poll?

 

[The Lensman]

Just got back from seeing it, and it's an A+ for me. Can't wait to see it again. Just an amazing film. Loved that, like MoS, and BvS, it was a serious film. Like those films, it had some light moments, but those moments never detracted or diminished the seriousness of the film. Unlike too many films of the marvelous competition. Had a lot of great emotional moments: Diana leaving Paradise Island, Diana returning to the village, Steve's big moment and Diana's reaction to it. Man.....that one was just....wow. And the scene where she see's Steve's picture on the monument. I damn near teared up with her. It was great that they could have these serious moments, without feeling like they had to insert a joke in those scenes because audiences might get too "bummed out" or whatever. I also like that the movie didn't sugar coat the world into some kind of "happy place", but reminded us that we have to do our part to make the world we want to live in and that in most cases it's not going to be easy and it's not going to be as simple as taking one guy out and victory.

Great cinematography and imagery. WW1 was an inspired choice, especially as I tend to read more about that war and gravitate towards movies set in that time than WW2. Love that the DCEU is giving us "gods among mortals" in their heroes. I like mythology, I like epic. Street level heroes don't hold my interest for long. I want the "modern gods" approach of Grant Morrison's classic JLA run.

In the JLA trailer, Diana makes mention of a new "age of heroes". I hope the old "age of heroes" doesn't just refer to Amazonians and Atlanteans battling the forces of Apokolips, but to ancient DC characters battling along side them in that time. Like Khufu and Shayara (The Hawks), Nabu (Dr. Fate), Teth-Adam (Black Adam), Shazam, Arion. Geoff Johns had these characters running around at the same time in ancient Egypt (except Arion) and it was an awesome idea. Also in the trailer is a brief shot of knights burying a Mother Box. I'd geek out if that sequence featured Etrigan the Demon in some form.

 

[The Lensman]

Wow---someone gave this flick an F on the poll?

Hey, they're "hip" and "edgy". XD

 

[Gepard]

What's up with Chris Pine and old motorcycles?

B+

What an almost perfect movie. The crowd I saw it with ate it up -- lots of clapping and laughter, hooting and hollering, and thunderous applause at the end. If those reactions (mine included) are any indication this thing is gonna make a billion dollars easy. The story was solid and the characters and humor all worked really well. It was gorgeous to look at too.

But there were a couple of thundering missteps that dragged the whole thing down a letter grade, all of them surrounding Ares. I was very disappointed in how the final showdown just turned into another slugfest where CGI action figures throw energy at each other and levitate impossible masses. So this is where Wonder Woman learns that only love will save the world? Well I guess "love" means "throw 100,000 volts of lightning at the bad guy until he's a giant crater." Its especially ironic since Ares thrives on violence. If there was ever a story where it would be appropriate for the hero to realize brute force won't solve anything and find another solution, this would be the one.

I was also thought it was terrible how Ares' real identity was revealed. He just....shows up, out of nowhere, and starts monologing. Okay. It's the cheapest, laziest way to do a reveal and fill in motivation imaginable. I was so sure they were going to pay off the lasso of truth by having it be important to uncovering his identity.

Still, it was tons of fun overall. Charming and funny. Well worth seeing, especially if you get a packed theater. This one is a crowd pleaser.

 

[DigificWriter]

I haven't seen a whole lot of negatives being attached to the film in fan reviews, but what I have seen mostly amounts to complaints about Ludendorff and Maru not being 'good' villains because they weren't fleshed-out enough, but my response to that is that they didn't need to be. To borrow a term coined by BtVS, they're "Little Bads", and so all we as an audience need to know about them is that they pose a threat to both our protagonists and the world at large.

 

[Kirk Prime]

It's amazing to me--for a very long time, the TV universe kicked the snot out of the movie universe. This is the 4th movie in the DC series, and it's the first one that didn't suck. Perfect? No. Good? Hell yeah.

Amazing how when they don't use D list characters or screw up Superman, they can do a good job.

Wonder Woman has always been a symbol of sorts for feminism, but this movie shows that a woman can be strong without hating on men. Where Supergirl had two episodes in a row that either had anti-male sexist speeches, or they had to make Superman look weak to make Supergirl look strong, in this movie, we see a trained, brilliant fighter that was great, heroic, and amazing and it was done without making anyone else look weak.

I wanted to judge this movie not just on how well they wrote Wonder Woman, but on how well they wrote Steve Trevor. They nailed it.

Wonder Woman is obviously a better fighter than Steve Trevor. She's stronger, faster, better trained, all of the above. But Steve Trevor is a hero in his own right. He's human, but he's brave, principled, and will make the sacrifices that heroes make.

Yes, Wonder Woman saved his life, but he was no "gentleman in distress." He wasn't Lois Lane falling out of a helicopter. He was never weakened to make Wonder Woman look great. They didn't need to do that. Wonder Woman was great period.

The only Wonder Woman story I liked better was the cartoon movie--which was actually somewhat similar to this one, but in modern times, a bit more violent, but with a bit more humor. Of course, it was also half the length.

I hope DC can carry this momentum into Justice League and once Superman is back, he'll actually BE Superman.

 

[Trekker4747]

Hey, they're "hip" and "edgy". XD

Armond White posts here?

 

[marillion]

Not wanting to repeat what others have said, I will just say that I loved it.. Such a great story and while it was definitely an "empowerment" type of movie, it didn't hit us over the head with it. I loved the characters and honestly, I thought Ares was pretty good.. Having seen David Thewlis' current run as a "big bad" on Fargo had me pegging him as the real villain kind of early on, but that did not detract away from it for me.

the only one little thing that stuck out in my mind is what happened to the German ship in the beginning.. There must have been a scene edited out that showed why the ship was listing so badly as it came through the bubble over the island. And what happened to the rest of her crew? Just kind of bugged me that there was no resolution other than the end of the battle on the beach..

ETA: Oh yeah, and the overnight boat ride to London.. Assist from the tug or not, there's no way.. Unless that boat has a magical motor or something..

WOW... $100.5 million.. plus another $130 million overseas... Beating all expectations.. Nicely done!!

Overall, a solid A/A+ for me.

 

[kirk55555]

You do realize that Man of Steel & Dawn of Justice were very successful films? Snyder set DC movies on the right course: serious and not the G.I. Joe cartoon-like jokiness (or consequence free nature) of most of the MCU, which render most of the latter franchise as forgettable popcorn movies with the exception of Captain America:The First Avenger & Captain America: The Winter Soldier, and part of the third Cap film--far and away the best MCU movies because they forced the lead characters to deal with serious issues and are fairly, and necessarily grim plots of sacrifice, betrayal, loss and morality. All of the hallmarks of the aforementioned DC films.

Wonder Woman is a foundation (chronologically), but it all points back to the established future--the films set in the present day. Gone are the horrible days of Tim Burton's freakshows (and miscasting), Schumacher's idiot/kiddieland, or the decline of a series seen in Superman III. This is a unified DC film universe in tone, message and effect...and its working. Any attempt to mirror the quip-heavy, cartoon action of various MCU films would finish DC's movie world building. They can save that kind of handling for WB's animated division aimed at a very young audience.

WW was in no way "unified in tone" with Snyder's dreary, unheroic angsty flicks. WW as a character was more similar to Reeve's Superman in tone (heroic and inspirational) then she is with the brooding murderer from Man of Steel. Heck, her parts in BvS are now better in my opinion after connecting to the character in her own movie. For me, her movie manages to (very slightly) make a bad Snyder film better for a few scenes now that I know the character as more then just her brief scenes in that movie.

Wonder Woman had decent action, good characters and humor that fit and worked exactly as it needed to, to lighten the mood at points and also make the characters feel more real/human. Its also, from what I've seen, a movie that is enjoyed by a lot of people who hate snyder's DC films, because it is very different. It took place in a war but still wasn't as dark or depressing as Snyder's junk (and WW had a scene where a village was murdered with poison gas). It got the tone it needed exactly right, while having a heroic, inspirational hero. WB needs more movies like WW, and needs to just let Snyder go. I'm pretty sure we won't be seeing another Snyder DC film after JL anyway, and even if we do as long as the individual hero films aren't run by him the DCEU can turn itself around.

In the end, the DCEU made a top tier superhero movie, better then anything Zach Snyder has ever made and something I'd compare to the best of the MCU (although I'd probably rate Avengers 1 and The Winter Solider slightly above WW). It might even be my favorite DC movie ever made. People I know who dislike Snyder's stuff to the point where they wouldn't pay to see another DC film (and neither being nerds like me in the first place) liked/loved Wonder Woman. No matter how much Snyder fans try to say it, WW is a very, very different movie from his stuff, and it appeals to more people while also not being DC copying the MCU. It is its own thing, and hopefully its the example the DCEU follows. Not that they should copy it, but that it should be the gold standard the other DCEU films look at. In 10 years, WW should be considered the "Iron Man" of the DCEU (aka the break out film) and MoS/BvS the weird, crappy outliers that don't end up representing the DCEU in general.

 

[dahj]

the only one little thing that stuck out in my mind is what happened to the German ship in the beginning..

Poseidon ate it.

Oh yeah, and the overnight boat ride to London..

Poseidon used the energy from eating a boat to speed them on their way.

(In my headcanon it took them a few days to get to London.)

 

[marillion]

^^ In mine too, but I wish that had at least been mentioned...

Gotta love Poseidon!

 

[stardream]

I have mixed feelings about Trevor coming back. Some deaths should be final although I wouldn't be adverse to him returning as something 'not real' as in a dream or in some sort of spirit guide persona.

It's amazing to me--for a very long time, the TV universe kicked the snot out of the movie universe. This is the 4th movie in the DC series, and it's the first one that didn't suck. Perfect? No. Good? Hell yeah.

Amazing how when they don't use D list characters or screw up Superman, they can do a good job.

Wonder Woman has always been a symbol of sorts for feminism, but this movie shows that a woman can be strong without hating on men. Where Supergirl had two episodes in a row that either had anti-male sexist speeches, or they had to make Superman look weak to make Supergirl look strong, in this movie, we see a trained, brilliant fighter that was great, heroic, and amazing and it was done without making anyone else look weak.

I wanted to judge this movie not just on how well they wrote Wonder Woman, but on how well they wrote Steve Trevor. They nailed it.

Wonder Woman is obviously a better fighter than Steve Trevor. She's stronger, faster, better trained, all of the above. But Steve Trevor is a hero in his own right. He's human, but he's brave, principled, and will make the sacrifices that heroes make.

Yes, Wonder Woman saved his life, but he was no "gentleman in distress." He wasn't Lois Lane falling out of a helicopter. He was never weakened to make Wonder Woman look great. They didn't need to do that. Wonder Woman was great period.

The only Wonder Woman story I liked better was the cartoon movie--which was actually somewhat similar to this one, but in modern times, a bit more violent, but with a bit more humor. Of course, it was also half the length.

I hope DC can carry this momentum into Justice League and once Superman is back, he'll actually BE Superman.

Yes! So much this! Bolded text mine.

 

[Kirk Prime]

I suppose they could go the same route they did in the 1970s and have Steve Trevor be a descendant of the original Steve Trevor. Not sure if having Pine play the role is the best idea, but I'd deal.

The biggest knock on this movie was wasting the supporting characters in WWI.

 

[wew]

I don't think the boat traveled back to London overnight. Also, believe Trevor implies that the boat was essentially given a tow by another ship for part of the way.

Believe the idea was to get them to London, not necessarily show a 4+ day journey by sailboat from the Mediterranean to Lond.

 

[KennyB]

The ONLY gripe I had was the fact that the airfield in the final showdown had hardened aircraft shelters that weren't built until the 1980's. And that is ONLY because I have spent most of my adult life on NATO bases in Europe. I know the regular viewer would not even notice that they were 70 years too early.....lol.