Why Was Equinox So Bad?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by JB2005, Oct 7, 2011.

  1. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I think it was more like the actors playing those roles weren't available to reprise them due to commitments to other acting jobs. Besides, why give screen time to a bunch of nobody actors when you've got main characters not being focused enough on. I don't get why fans give a damn about the Equinox crew leftovers when Tuvok, Chakotay & Neelix aren't getting their fair share of development. Why develope the secondary cast if they couldn't even figure out how to make Kes a better character?
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2012
  2. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Wait!

    Nucleogenic aliens????

    Seriously, sure maybe they're recycling technobabble, or maybe there is a concerted relationship between the genesis of this lifeform and the disaster that ravaged Ocampa striping it of all it's nucleogenic particles and the planets ability to generate new nucleogenic particles.

    Were the Space beasties Ocampan?

    (Not even Cousins, but just from the same nieghbourhood.)
     
  3. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, I'm going to say "no" to that one.
    The writers of the series just weren't that deep.
    They still can't fully come up with an explaination of why nobody remembers Kes' warning about the Krenium.
     
  4. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That's how canon works.

    It doesn't matter what the writers thought they were writing, or what they should have written, whywhy wrote what they wrote or what they werre thinking what they were writing, all that matters is what is preserved on camera.

    Typos in the bible started wars, not that type setting was invented till the 15th century. But ascribing by hand, illuminating ditto.

    The Book of G'kar is copied by hand forever after with a coffee mug ring left behind by Mr Garibaldi.

    half the shit I pull out of my ass in this forum has nothing to do with the writers intents of their story telling but about the unnatural force of serendipity creating unexpected and uncalled for depth.
     
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  5. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yah same process as reading the I-Ching or whatever. We imbue with meaning because that's the way the human heart works.
     
  6. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    You think I have a human heart?

    (Not in a draw.)

    Nicest, thing most anyone has said to me in years.

    Wait.

    A drive powered by nucleogenic particles?

    They're on every M Class planet except Ocampa, it's the crap that makes precipitation work, apparently.

    Unless those particles were jiggled/altered by all that dimension jumping, Ransom could have feuled up on any M-Class planet other than ocampa.
     
  7. Relayer1

    Relayer1 Admiral Admiral

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    Well, there certainly should have been development for Tuvok, Chakotay, Neelix, Kim and Kes, just as there should have been development of supporting characters - lets face it, they had as many seasons as DS9 and all of the main cast had loads of development on that show.

    Plus plenty for Garak, Dukat, Winn, Rom, Nog, Leeta and Cassidy, and some for Martok, Keiko, Bareil...
     
  8. Anwar

    Anwar Admiral Admiral

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    DS9 had a better premise for developing their cast and supporting cast, being stationary and all that.

    I mean, how well developed were the characters and supporting staff on TOS?
     
  9. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yep, and that's really one of the major reasons season 4 is so good. It had a good introduction to a character, a number of good episodes revolving around them and a nice bookend in "Hope and Fear" that solidifies their place in the crew.
     
  10. Mysterion

    Mysterion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Maybe his crew should have done the same favor for him back in BoBW, huh?
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Availability is hardly as important as affordability.

    I'm not talking big bucks, just a tiny bit extra, even a few hundred dollars.

    But if an actor is given a string of appearances, they're paid more per episode than a one off because of perceived value and leverage.

    Even if they ask an actor back on just an episode by episode basis, their agent is negligent if they don't negotiate an extra couple grand or a larger trailer for a "special guest star"
    which acts as a sort of ad hoc retainer.

    Voyager was a cheap Scrooge.

    Which doesn't explain Tal Celes.

    I really don't get that.

    Were her episodes written by the same person?

    (Apparently not.)
     
  12. DeepSpaceWine

    DeepSpaceWine Commander Red Shirt

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    The distance tally left off the Slipstream run in "Timeless".

    "Equinox" is a mess for a few reasons.
    1. Ankari being far far away according to the Equinox in Part 1, Ankari being just 50ly back according to Janeway & Chakotay in Part 2. He can find a ship with little looking.
    2. Ransom's description of their pre-Ankari voyage is quite different from Voyager's Season 1-3 voyage.
    3. They say they've been lucky and haven't encountered the Borg. Let's see, there's a 10,000ly wide section Voyager jumped over and there have been Borg highways and other things in a few spots in Season 5 and who knows what was in the 10,000 & 20,000ly Voyager jumped over in Season 5. Luck? It seems quite improbable the Borg weren't on the Equinox's sensor range once or the specter of their terror encountered in some people along the way if they originated out near Ocampa.

    Here's a key passage:
    JANEWAY: I'm afraid I'm not going to be very receptive this time, either. It's an interesting idea, but the Ankari are fifty light years in the wrong direction.
    CHAKOTAY: I understand that, but they're the ones who introduced Ransom to these life forms. It stands to reason they might be able to communicate with them, tell them to call off their attacks.
    JANEWAY: Then he couldn't have gotten far. Without his enhanced drive his ship's only capable of warp six.

    (and based on the numbers provided in another passage, it seems like enhanced warp isn't much over six. And that Ankari vessel is found 2ly away)


    I tried to for fun figure out the most logical explanation for each of Voyager's problem episodes (Threshold, Equinox, Homestead, etc). With "Equinox", the weakest link that once removed, makes the episode make more sense is the Equinox crew is not being truthful. The Ankari being easy to find is a hard fact, we merely have the Equinox's word they've come this far.

    Point 1 makes it seem like Equinox did not travel very far. Point 2 makes it seem like they arrived at a very different place. Point 3 also supports them not traveling very far because going long distance, Borg or some indication of Borg should've been encountered.

    Equinox encountered the Krowtonan Guard their 1st week in the DQ. Janeway said she never heard of them. If they were so dangerous to inflict such casualties on Equinox, you'd think Neelix would have warned Voyager about them, thus familiar with the name and to avoid their territory. Equinox "Season 1" does not jive with Voyager "Season 1".

    I think the Equinox crew is so shell-shocked, their minds are too damaged to process information correctly (read: they're crazy). Look at the US, 70% believed Iraq was behind 9/11 in 2002. Certain figures were to blame for fueling that (yet no one noticed how legalistic they were in insinuating it, mentioning the 2 in the same sentence, yet not coming out directly and saying it). Traumatized minds are ripe for manipulation. It's actually a bit like cult-think. Their ship, we see the kind of damage on it, so their sensors and their diagnostic equipment was probably fubared. They think they're covering so much distance but in reality they've only got conventional warp. Or maybe a property of dolphin-powered warp is it tricks the sensors into thinking they're going faster than they are, kind of like running on a long carpet in a cartoon and folds of carpet keep piling up behind the runner.
    (on the subject of Iraq, I think "Bliss" seems to closely fit the lead up to that war in how from a distance there was [more] skepticism but close up everyone was drinking the koolaid and the comparison between the crew vs. Seven and how anti-war and case for war skeptics were treated in the media in the lead-up. Saw it in spring/summer 2003 again and it seemed to take on a new tone)



    JANEWAY: The alien compound. Ten isograms. If I understand your calculations, that's enough to increase your warp factor by what, point zero three percent for one month? Unfortunately, that boost wouldn't get you very far, so you'd need to replenish the supply and that means killing another lifeform, and then another. How many lives would it take to get you back to the Alpha quadrant? I think you know the reason we're under attack. These aliens are trying to protect themselves from you.
    RANSOM: Sixty three, that's how many more it will take. Every time I sacrifice one of those lives, a part of me is lost as well.

    Janeway's skeptical here. Their exchange seems like they're talking over each other. Ransom is saying 63 will get them home, Janeway is saying it's just warp factor x0.03%. With what, 35,000ly til Earth 63 x 0.0003 on warp is 0.0189 x warp. The math doesn't favor Equinox. The dolphins were substitute fuel not booster juice. Gilmore says somewhere they have virtually no dilithium crystals left. Dolphin fuel wasn't enhanced warp, it was ghetto fuel.

    Elsewhere he says they went over 10,000ly in 2 weeks, 5000ly a week on the remains of just 1 death dolphin. If true, their dolphin-unsafe warp is getting diminishing returns because that early rate would mean just 3 1/2 dolphins to get back to Earth. Unless maybe they summoned a killer whale with their summoning device that first time...

    In Part 2, they are still close to Voyager, yet say this:
    BURKE: We're going to need more fuel. We've only got enough left to jump another five hundred light years.
    From their existing fuel they had going into Part 1, they talk about only enough for 500ly as if it's a small distance, yet since Part 1, they are still in reach of Voyager, which plugs into the Equinox= delusional hypothesis.

    At a few points they sound like a cult, like this exchange:
    GILMORE: What happens to Voyager?
    BURKE: They have weapons, shields, a full crew. They'll survive.
    LESSING: Maybe we should abandon ship. Try to forget everything that's happened here.
    RANSOM: A shower and a hot meal. I guess that's all it takes for some of us to forget what's at stake here. We're going home, We can't let Voyager stop us now, not when we're this close. Now we're proceeding as planned. Are there any other objections? I need each and every one of you to give me your very best, as you always have. Max.

    They are oblivious to how far Voyager has gotten and are deluded to think their way is better and will get them home. They also quickly enter into cover-up mode once aboard Voyager. What did they have in mind on Earth, faking a warp core breach and blowing up the ship or perhaps a habitable world in hailing range of the Federation but remote enough to destroy all the evidence before rescue?


    Ransom says the Caretaker pulled Equinox there, but the Caretaker is a generic title. There could be 2 Caretakers, an Ocampa one and another one half a quadrant away. The galaxy is a big place, even 1/4th the galaxy is still big... big enough for multiple Caretakers. Or Equinox was pulled to Ocampa space by the Caretaker and he screwed up and sent the ship to the wrong area, somewhere else in the DQ (perhaps swapping destinations with a Krowtonan ship which ended up where Equinox was pulled?). He does mention a wormhole along with the engine enhancements, of course no distance tag on it nor time tag.
     
  13. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^^^Not encountering the Borg and encountering different peoples is the same problem. And they have the same solution, which is that the galaxy is really, really big.

    If I remember correctly the Ankari were the aliens who liked the subspace creatures and mediated in part two. There isn't anyway to justify their reappearance in part two, save as a plot cheat, designed to let Chakotay "save" Lessing without letting Equinox escape. This makes Janeway look bad, which is apparently the point.

    To answer the question, Equinox is so bad because it doesn't realize that what the Equinox was doing was horrible and Janeway was obligated to engage in hot pursuit of criminals. It really thinks Janeway should have murdered more aliens to protect Lessing from his victims.
     
  14. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Are you forgetting that Noah's victims were Janeways allies she promised to feed Lessing to?
     
  15. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    One series out of 5??
     
  16. Sandoval

    Sandoval Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    What's an isogram?

    Why not just use an existing unit of measure like kilograms? Or grams?

    Why is Voyager littered with unnecessarily complex made-up words used in place of perfectly sensible existing ones?

    What day is it?

    Where is my medicine?
     
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  17. Sandoval

    Sandoval Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I do enjoy the phrase 'dolphin unsafe warp' though. :)
     
  18. Lord Manitou

    Lord Manitou Commander Red Shirt

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    It is obvious the Equinox captain and his crew understood little of a creature that came from a different space-time continuum.
    If the creature is strange and comes from a strange land you don't make a place for it to call home but you kill it. Ransom was just killing something that was way out of range of normal space-time. It was against his grain to form some sort of empathy with it. Janeway is well known for her successful cosmopolitan approach to anything under God (Janeway?). She is no more correct than Ransom is. In fact, one is playing-out a more wrongful edict than the other.
     
  19. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'm sometimes squicked out in Trek (all Trek) how as soon as a species shows the faintest glimmer of intelligence it must be treated as misunderstood brother. What IQ do you get this treatment, 70? Were the Vorta pre- Dominion tweaking that intelligent? What about primates, can you eat them freely or does their use of tools change that? The whole idea that they must experience a sense of self or some kind of consciousness comes up too and makes even less sense as we have all kinds of beings in Trek who are perfectly intelligent but don't exist like that.

    Where is the special IQ tricorder that tells us whether we get to kill them or not?
     
  20. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That might be the Psychotricordor from the ridiculous episode of TOS where Scotty was possessed by Jack the Ripper, which could supposedly tell if he was lying or delusional or what he was thinking down to the barest weight.

    Considering the rules for terraforming we saw in Homesoil, "Humanity", the federation et all... Will not hinder or demolish even a potential life form billions of years away from achieving sentience of any description.

    Vegetarians.

    They can grow meat with out a central nervous system surely?