Why the hate for Alex Kurtzman?

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I like 26-episode seasons. Sorry, but I do. 20 is okay. I can live with 13. Mad Men is my all-time favorite show and 13 episodes per season worked for it just fine. 10 starts to be too short for me. Anything below that and I start thinking, "Why don't you just do a TV Movie or a Mini-Series?"

But instead of the 26x 45 minute episode system that gives you 1170 minutes of actual content, how would you feel about my Trimester setup?

“Main Content” = 17x episodes of mostly 60 min Shows for “Main Content” = 1140 mins of main content
= 2x 120-min episodes reserved for the Season Premier & Finale episodes.
= 15x 60-min episodes for the standard episode length throughout the year.

 

[Lord Garth]

But instead of the 26x 45 minute episode system that gives you 1170 minutes of actual content, how would you feel about my Trimester setup?

“Main Content” = 17x episodes of mostly 60 min Shows for “Main Content” = 1140 mins of main content
= 2x 120-min episodes reserved for the Season Premier & Finale episodes.
= 15x 60-min episodes for the standard episode length throughout the year.

It would depend on the level of serialization. Purely serialized, I guess it would be fine.

For episodic, then 60 minutes might be too long for an episode. It depends on the story being told. For some, 60 minutes would be great. For others, well, there better be a very good B-Plot to pick up the slack.

"The Measure of a Man" was greatly enhanced by the Extended Cut. For something else, like a typical episode, probably not.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

It would depend on the level of serialization. Purely serialized, I guess it would be fine.

What about lightly serialized, like the way "Supernatural" or "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" did it's serialization.

Where there are a few "Critical Core Eps" spread throughout the season related to the main season arc or larger story arc, but alot of it is episodic in between.

 

[Lord Garth]

What about lightly serialized, like the way "Supernatural" or "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" did it's serialization.

Where there are a few "Critical Core Eps" spread throughout the season related to the main season arc or larger story arc, but alot of it is episodic in between.

I've never seen Supernatural so I can't say there, but for Buffy the Vampire Slayer it could work. I haven't seen Buffy in a LONG time, so my memory of it is a bit fuzzy.

 

[Danja]

This is why I think the US TV Seasonal Structure needs a over-haul to a Trimester System.

Japan bases their TV seasons on a "Quarter Cycle", but in my opinion, they've mastered that style and it works for them.

In the US, we haven't, and many shows that do go for the 2x Calender Seasons per year end up with too many episodes to make.

Doesn't matter if it's 22-26 eps per year, that's ALOT of eps.


I concur, limitations are important, especially episode $/time budgets & episode quantity limitations, but I think 9-11 episodes a year is too few.

Imagine if a TV show Production had "More Time" to make each episode, instead of 1 week, per episode, they get 2 weeks per episode.
Imagine what that could do for the quality of each episode!?!?!

So Imagine what a Full TV production crew can do with 2 weeks to shoot 60 minutes of content + Episode Prologue & Epilogue
instead of
1 week to shoot 40-45 minutes of content + Episode Prologue & Epilogue

This is why a Trimester Calender System where it's 3x Trimesters & 17 weeks/episodes per Trimester with 1 week set-aside for New Years programming that isn't attached to normal TV seasons.

That gives you that new "Goldi-Locks" zone IMO and it allows for deeper/longer shows w/o going too hard on the production crew like a 22-26 ep 1-hr show (40-45 minutes of content) would induce.

“Main Content” = 17x episodes of mostly 60 min Shows for “Main Content” = 1140 mins of main content
= 2x 120-min episodes reserved for the Season Premier & Finale episodes.
= 15x 60-min episodes for the standard episode length throughout the year.

26x 45-min episodess = 1170 mins

You can get a similar amount of "Actual Content" length while producing quality content, with fewer total episode counts while giving more room for the story to flow instead of that tight 40-45 minute budget per episde.

I REALLY love the new 1-hour or 60-min of actual content the streaming era allows.
I just wish it was consistent & that we got a bit more episodes.
That's why I'm such a big advocate of the Trimester Schedule.

It'll work for TV shows, it'll work for Academic Education, it'll work for ALOT of things IMO.

Gargoyles tried 52 eps per year (and they ran out of gas doing it).

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Gargoyles tried 52 eps per year (and they ran out of gas doing it).

Too many eps in 1 year, I feel sorry for the production staff who needed to keep that time table.

 

[Daedalus]

DSC S1 really benefitted from those 15x55 minute episodes IMO. Sure, there were some clunky parts and a random side trip into the MU, but it really gave a lot of the main storyline time to breathe. I really appreciate what they did there.

 

[Tomalak]

Eh. Kinda. I was very excited when SNW was announced, because it was supposed to be a return to episodic storytelling. And then it wasn't, really. Look, I know I'm an old codger, and people just need to get off my lawn, but I want one Trek show that doesn't have arcs, or super-extensive tie-ins to other series, or whatever. I would have been much, much happier if SNW had never done the "Pike having knowledge of his future" bit that hangs over much of the series, for example. Heck, I'd have been much happier if they'd never done a prequel where they can't wait to throw in every reference to and character from TOS. Some of that is okay. I'm a defender of Picard season 3, for example. But I'd like just a good, episodic, standalone Trek.

I totally get this, but expanding on it, when was the last time Star Trek *didn't* have some kind of arc structure, be it plot or character? TOS Season 3?

All the Berman era shows had arcs connecting their episodic stories. Even TNG S1 belatedly had something of an arc with Remmick, the conspiracy and the curious happenings in the Neutral Zone.

I don't think SNW is doing anything much different, it's just that the lower episode count means the arc becomes more prominent because it takes up more of the season.

 

[The Wormhole]

Eh. Kinda. I was very excited when SNW was announced, because it was supposed to be a return to episodic storytelling. And then it wasn't, really. Look, I know I'm an old codger, and people just need to get off my lawn, but I want one Trek show that doesn't have arcs, or super-extensive tie-ins to other series, or whatever. I would have been much, much happier if SNW had never done the "Pike having knowledge of his future" bit that hangs over much of the series, for example. Heck, I'd have been much happier if they'd never done a prequel where they can't wait to throw in every reference to and character from TOS. Some of that is okay. I'm a defender of Picard season 3, for example. But I'd like just a good, episodic, standalone Trek.

"Standalone" in the context you're referring to isn't really done on TV at all anymore. Even in the 90s, TNG and Voyager were looked at as backwards since the majority of their episodes were basically disposable one-offs that didn't provide anything to the viewers who tuned in each week.

SNW's approach, standalone episodes that are usually resolved each week but with character arcs that run throughout the season is far more modern and is the best approach to make the show accessible to casual viewers and reward those who do watch every episode.

 

[Firebird]

Gargoyles tried 52 eps per year (and they ran out of gas doing it).

The 52-episode order is a cable network policy, cut down from the original 65-episode syndication standard:

65-Episode Cartoon - TV Tropes

Instead of the usual 13-17 episodes like certain Saturday Morning Cartoons, some western cartoons have had original runs lasting 65 episodes, because 65 episodes equals 13 weeks (or 3-4 months) of material to syndicate at one episode per weekday …

tvtropes.org

 

[James Cole]

As early as VGR season 4, Brannon Braga was campaigning for serialization, but UPN said no. Berman and Braga asked for a break before starting ENT, the studio and UPN said no. Berman and Braga asked for serializing season 1 and setting it on Earth. Again, no. At one point I remember Berman and/or Braga frankly saying that if they didn't do ENT, the studio would find someone else who would. We're all too readily aware of the battles that Berman's team lost, but only aware of a few that they won... like keeping the boy bands off the NX-01.

The Berman era was far from perfect. But in over 600 episodes, there are less than you can count on two hands that are downright unwatchable. Berman also took seriously trying to stay true to Gene's Vision(TM), for better or worse.

The Kurtzman era is predicated upon the premise that you need to slice and dice the target audience. Fine, in theory. You want to bring on new fans... fine, in theory. But make sure you're proportionally serving the audience, and budget accordingly.

The Berman era represents the high water mark of Star Trek's popularity. So have a Berman era-ish series. Clearly unmet demand exists for something like that, as revealed with the positive reaction to PICARD season 3. Half of the Berman era audience is still in the prime demos (18-49, 25-54). They also have a lot more money to spend on merchandise and month to month streaming subscription fees as it is.

If they got something like that going that was profitable, they could then cross subsidize something for a more limited audience to invest in growing a new younger fanbase, say SFA.

 

[Dukhat]

As early as VGR season 4, Brannon Braga was campaigning for serialization, but UPN said no. Berman and Braga asked for a break before starting ENT, the studio and UPN said no. Berman and Braga asked for serializing season 1 and setting it on Earth. Again, no. At one point I remember Berman and/or Braga frankly saying that if they didn't do ENT, the studio would find someone else who would. We're all to readily aware of the battles that Berman's team lost, but only aware of a few that they won... like keeping the boy bands off the NX-01.

Yes, I've always said that, while they aren't innocent angels, Berman & Braga get far more crap than they deserve, especially when fan ire should have been focused more on UPN and Dawn Ostroff more than anything else.

 

[James Cole]

Yes, I've always said that, while they aren't innocent angels, Berman & Braga get far more crap than they deserve, especially when fan ire should have been focused more on UPN and Dawn Ostroff more than anything else.

Let alone Les Moonves and Sumner Redstone...

 

[Dukhat]

Let alone Les Moonves and Sumner Redstone...

Eh, I wouldn't blame Moonves either. He's a businessman. If VOY and ENT had been ratings powerhouses, he would have loved them and continued to produce more. But they weren't, not by a long shot. Any businessman worth his salt would know that producing shows that were expensive but produced little revenue is illogical. That's why reality TV was so prevalent; it was cheap to produce and got stellar ratings.

 

[fireproof78]

Berman is fine for his era but I don't just want that.

Same with TOS. I don't want more of the same. Maybe that makes me in the minority or whatever but I'm ok with unpopular Trek if it's entertaining.

That's the goal with a entertainment franchise.

 

[Lord Garth]

Gene Roddenberry, Rick Berman, JJ Abrams, Alex Kurtzman... in retrospect, the only one who I haven't had at least some sort of issue with at least at one point or another was Harve Bennett.

Before someone says "TFF!", he talked William Shatner out of having the Enterprise meet God. As in God God. Having Harve Bennett there helped.

 

[Detached Nacelle]

Lower Decks did the standalone storytelling very well with quite a few episodes having little to nothing to do with anything else going on but its comedic celebratory tone might have been what allowed it to get away with it. I feel so dirty talking about Lower Decks in the past tense. I'm not over it, just like Legends of Tomorrow.

Strange New Worlds had a solid foundation built for itself, recognisable yet unused characters on a famous ship. Academy will have its Discovery connections to help bridge the worlds of newcomers and longtimers.

Original characters have been a struggle for a lot of shows made in the new content wave. Discovery's bridge crew took a long time to get any real development and were mostly shuffled away, it brought us a few great characters but not the whole roster. Picard's team in season 1 and 2, SNW and Lower Decks managed to nail it for me. But the bait for nonexistant spinoffs both times gave us again seat fillers on the bridge no one is going to remember, hell the Titan crew are all the same races as the Stargazer's take that for what you will.

I think Academy has potential buoyed by non-gratuitous cameos. If the 'workplace comedy' show can capture the Lower Decks magic then there's hope there.

Ultimately I think Robert Kazinsky was right, the majority of people, certainly the vocal ones, just want TNG again. Not in spirit but literally Picard and co back on the Enterprise. But that will kill the franchise off. They did that with TOS and they had to innovate into TNG to survive. Certainly doesn't do wonders for any character development, hey I'm a captain now but I'm only fit to do the job other ships give to Ensign Noname and Lieutenant Whatshisface. It took Riker and Troi finally deciding to be together and Data dying for these characters to kind of decide life was worth living, like did Worf resign from being an ambassador just because a vacancy with all his old friends opened up again? He didn't leave DS9 when the E was launched so why leave his job with Martok?

I'm not going to say anyone's negative feelings after watching Section 31 are wrong, art is after all entirely subjective, if you don't like it you don't like it. I think with deeper analysis there's a lot more to the movie than it gets credit for and I do think that something different is necessary.

 

[James Cole]

Before someone says "TFF!", he talked William Shatner out of having the Enterprise meet God. Having Harve Bennett there helped.

It's kinda crazy in hindsight just how well Harve Bennett ended up working with the TOS films. Having the studio parachute in some "random outsider" could have easily gone sideways. Granted Leonard Nimoy served as a major veto point for keeping things on a recognizable path. His films might not be the most cinematic, but he definitely "got" Star Trek... Shatner too.

 

[fireproof78]

Ultimately I think Robert Kazinsky was right, the majority of people, certainly the vocal ones, just want TNG again. Not in spirit but literally Picard and co back on the Enterprise. But that will kill the franchise off.

At this point I believe that's an acceptable goal.

When the rhetoric is a constant barrage of "destruction of the franchise" then I believe it's time to ask if what is wanted is capturing the literal TNG experience which is impossible.

Season 3 was not TNG. It was Picard, with the same elements working inside it. It took a past conflict with a familiar foe, that is actually working for another enemy, with a previously unrevealed relative of a legacy member, while being opposed by Starfleet due to infiltration by the enemy.

Add in family drama, a reunion, and people talking down to Picard and it's a similar outcome.

Now, what it did well was have Worf and Raffi, the new and the old, work together to create some interesting challenges. That was well done. That's why I miss Elnor is because you could have fun team ups of old and new and get creative.

It's not the familiar TNG Formula but it faked it enough because of the literal feels. But, feels don't make a franchise profitable.

 

[Danja]

Ultimately I think Robert Kazinsky was right, the majority of people, certainly the vocal ones, just want TNG again. Not in spirit but literally Picard and co back on the Enterprise.

I have no desire to see Picard's geriatric brigade ever again (they threw the Picard S1 cast over the side ).

I'm sorry, but I do not see them as the ne plus ultra of the franchise.