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Why the hate for Alex Kurtzman?

Some of the best stores of the earlier shows, IMHO, came out of the fact that (1) they had to come up with things to fill 26 episodes per year and (2) they had to do things like bottle shows to try to save money. If it weren't for those two things, for example, we might never have ended up with episodes like "The Drumhead."
Bottle shows, yeah, those can have merit, but having to so twenty-six episodes a year actually hurt Star Trek more than it helped. And let's be honest, half the time there were probably only ten good episodes a season anyway. And given how often Berman era Trek recycled storylines, it seems they were having trouble filling twenty-six episodes every year. And hell, by the mid 90s the Star Treks were the only shows still doing twenty-six episode seasons, everyone else were doing twenty-two to twenty-four. Star Trek really would have benefitted from cutting their seasons down by at least two episodes.

In modern times, you can forget about twenty episode seasons or longer. Only the networks do seasons like that, and even that's not even a guarantee anymore. And Star Trek or any sci-fi show couldn't last on a network anymore. Just look at The Orville.
 
I think fans need to give up on the idea of there ever being a long season of Star Trek, or any other niche program, ever again. The entertainment industry has changed tremendously. It ain't going back.
I could be wrong but I think their point was more of having more standalones in that ten episode season than having it so connected, but keeping that season arc throughline. And that limitations breed creativity, so they can't afford an epic space battle so they have two people talking in a room, so we get "The Drumhead" or "Duet."
 
In modern times, you can forget about twenty episode seasons or longer. Only the networks do seasons like that, and even that's not even a guarantee anymore. And Star Trek or any sci-fi show couldn't last on a network anymore. Just look at The Orville.

Or Firefly ... Or Dollhouse ... Or Terra Nova.

(Oddly enough, all three died on Fox! :lol: )

limitations breed creativity, so they can't afford an epic space battle so they have two people talking in a room, so we get "The Drumhead" or "Duet."

It also produced duds like "Threshold," "Move Along Home," and "Sub Rosa."
 
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It also produced duds like "Threshold," "Move Along Home," and "Sub Rosa."
That is true, but on balance, I think Trek -- and entertainment in general -- was better when it had more limitations. There are very few people who would argue the premise that Wrath of Khan is not only one Trek's best efforts ever, but one of the best sci-fi films of all time. Yet it was made on an $11 million budget stretched so thin that the Enterprise and the Reliant were the same set.

Nicholas Meyer likes to say "art thrives on restrictions" and I think that's true. These seemingly unlimited production budgets coupled with the technology available today have led to, IMHO, less creativity across the board. No, I'm not saying all modern productions are bad. But I think the limitations that used to be placed on entertainment by budget and technology actually resulted in some of the best movies and episodes.
 
I think '90s Trek tended to benefit from spending big on some episodes and then paying for it with more limited ones. That way we got the best of both worlds... and The Best of Both Worlds.
That wasn't just Trek, that's an industry standard. Every episode has the "pattern" budget. If you under-spend it on episode A, that can be saved for a bigger episode. Conversely, if you over-spend on episode A, then you have to siphon cash off later episodes, which is why the "bottle episode" became a thing. Limit the company moves, limit the sets, limit the cast, and you can trim the fat off fairly quickly.
 
Or Firefly ... Or Dollhouse ... Or Terra Nova.

(Oddly enough, all three died on Fox! :lol: )



It also produced duds like "Threshold," "Move Along Home," and "Sub Rosa."
In twenty-six episode seasons they made some bad episodes? Sure.
 
I think '90s Trek tended to benefit from spending big on some episodes and then paying for it with more limited ones. That way we got the best of both worlds... and The Best of Both Worlds.
That's largely a function of how the ratings and network ad sales functioned.

The episodes which would usually be the big-budget events were during the season premiere, the "sweeps" period (typically in the months of November, February, and May), and the season finale. The ratings from those particular weeks would give a bearing to advertisers and studios as to how big of an audience was watching, the demos of the audience, and any patterns in the numbers.

And you have "bottle" shows with very little in terms of vfx in-between those events.
 
modern times, you can forget about twenty episode seasons or longer. Only the networks do seasons like that, and even that's not even a guarantee anymore. And Star Trek or any sci-fi show couldn't last on a network anymore. Just look at The Orville
I'd like to.

That's way too much.
 
I could be wrong but I think their point was more of having more standalones in that ten episode season than having it so connected, but keeping that season arc throughline.
Which is exactly what SNW is doing.
Or Firefly ... Or Dollhouse ... Or Terra Nova.

(Oddly enough, all three died on Fox! :lol: )
True. I focused on Orville since it's the most Star Trek-like show to have aired on network television in the past decade, making it a reasonable comparison.
 
True. I focused on Orville since it's the most Star Trek-like show to have aired on network television in the past decade, making it a reasonable comparison.
I feel a presence....
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I feel a presence....
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Yes, I am of course aware of the thin ice I'm treading by bringing That Show into this. However, my statement is factually true, making it relevant to this discussion.

Regardless, I agree we should probably limit how much further discussion gets devoted to That Show in this thread,
 
Which is exactly what SNW is doing.
Eh. Kinda. I was very excited when SNW was announced, because it was supposed to be a return to episodic storytelling. And then it wasn't, really. Look, I know I'm an old codger, and people just need to get off my lawn, but I want one Trek show that doesn't have arcs, or super-extensive tie-ins to other series, or whatever. I would have been much, much happier if SNW had never done the "Pike having knowledge of his future" bit that hangs over much of the series, for example. Heck, I'd have been much happier if they'd never done a prequel where they can't wait to throw in every reference to and character from TOS. Some of that is okay. I'm a defender of Picard season 3, for example. But I'd like just a good, episodic, standalone Trek.

What I honestly want is what I think Paramount/CBS and Kurtzman think is the past and not workable today. I want them to go to an era we haven't spent any or much time in before, put a brand new crew on a starship named Enterprise, and have weekly episodic adventures. And I would think in the world of streaming, there has to be room for that somewhere.
 
Bottle shows, yeah, those can have merit, but having to so twenty-six episodes a year actually hurt Star Trek more than it helped. And let's be honest, half the time there were probably only ten good episodes a season anyway. And given how often Berman era Trek recycled storylines, it seems they were having trouble filling twenty-six episodes every year. And hell, by the mid 90s the Star Treks were the only shows still doing twenty-six episode seasons, everyone else were doing twenty-two to twenty-four. Star Trek really would have benefitted from cutting their seasons down by at least two episodes.

In modern times, you can forget about twenty episode seasons or longer. Only the networks do seasons like that, and even that's not even a guarantee anymore. And Star Trek or any sci-fi show couldn't last on a network anymore. Just look at The Orville.
This is why I think the US TV Seasonal Structure needs a over-haul to a Trimester System.

Japan bases their TV seasons on a "Quarter Cycle", but in my opinion, they've mastered that style and it works for them.

In the US, we haven't, and many shows that do go for the 2x Calender Seasons per year end up with too many episodes to make.

Doesn't matter if it's 22-26 eps per year, that's ALOT of eps.

That is true, but on balance, I think Trek -- and entertainment in general -- was better when it had more limitations. There are very few people who would argue the premise that Wrath of Khan is not only one Trek's best efforts ever, but one of the best sci-fi films of all time. Yet it was made on an $11 million budget stretched so thin that the Enterprise and the Reliant were the same set.

Nicholas Meyer likes to say "art thrives on restrictions" and I think that's true. These seemingly unlimited production budgets coupled with the technology available today have led to, IMHO, less creativity across the board. No, I'm not saying all modern productions are bad. But I think the limitations that used to be placed on entertainment by budget and technology actually resulted in some of the best movies and episodes.
I concur, limitations are important, especially episode $/time budgets & episode quantity limitations, but I think 9-11 episodes a year is too few.

Imagine if a TV show Production had "More Time" to make each episode, instead of 1 week, per episode, they get 2 weeks per episode.
Imagine what that could do for the quality of each episode!?!?!

So Imagine what a Full TV production crew can do with 2 weeks to shoot 60 minutes of content + Episode Prologue & Epilogue
instead of
1 week to shoot 40-45 minutes of content + Episode Prologue & Epilogue

This is why a Trimester Calender System where it's 3x Trimesters & 17 weeks/episodes per Trimester with 1 week set-aside for New Years programming that isn't attached to normal TV seasons.

That gives you that new "Goldi-Locks" zone IMO and it allows for deeper/longer shows w/o going too hard on the production crew like a 22-26 ep 1-hr show (40-45 minutes of content) would induce.

“Main Content” = 17x episodes of mostly 60 min Shows for “Main Content” = 1140 mins of main content
= 2x 120-min episodes reserved for the Season Premier & Finale episodes.
= 15x 60-min episodes for the standard episode length throughout the year.

26x 45-min episodess = 1170 mins

You can get a similar amount of "Actual Content" length while producing quality content, with fewer total episode counts while giving more room for the story to flow instead of that tight 40-45 minute budget per episde.

I REALLY love the new 1-hour or 60-min of actual content the streaming era allows.
I just wish it was consistent & that we got a bit more episodes.
That's why I'm such a big advocate of the Trimester Schedule.

It'll work for TV shows, it'll work for Academic Education, it'll work for ALOT of things IMO.

Splitting the Year into 4x Quarters = Too fast
Splitting the Year into 2x Semesters = Too slow
Splitting the Year into 3x Trimesters = "Just Right!" IMO.
 
I've never watched a CW show in my life. So, whenever someone tries to tell me that Discovery or another Kurtzman Trek show are like a CW show, all I can think is, "Well, you'd know more about that than I would."

Also, I'm only a fan of two Kurtzman Trek shows. So, if someone's saying another Star Trek show besides Discovery or Picard is like a CW show, then it doesn't matter to me because I don't have a dog in that fight. Sorry. And if you say the two that I do like are like a CW show, then I take you back to my first paragraph.

I'm a fan of the CW TV series Supergirl and Black Lightning, and I can say that both shows are great, with great writing, and complete understanding of the characters. Also, Black Lightning's an adult male in his 30's/'40's with two daughters, so I don't see what's so bad about this network, or its shows, other than older people despise it and them for some reason.
 
I like 26-episode seasons. Sorry, but I do. 20 is okay. I can live with 13. Mad Men is my all-time favorite show and 13 episodes per season worked for it just fine. 10 starts to be too short for me. Anything below that and I start thinking, "Why don't you just do a TV Movie or a Mini-Series?"

Serialization, I have two ideal models that I prefer: 1) Every episode ends on a page-turner like Breaking Bad. It's the best example of that model I can think of, even though I personally prefer Better Call Saul. 2) Episodes with their own integrity that serve as part of a larger arc, whether it spans the season or an entire series. Whether "across the series" or "across the season" depends on the situation.

Talking about my preferences only: In something like a 13-episode season, ideally every episode would deal with the arc in its own way with only an occasional break. In a 26-episode season, it would be the reverse. Episodes that deal with the overall arc would be spaced out and strategically placed.
 
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