Why no women captains?

[Hofner]

Well, if we want to go whole hog and say Janice Lester was right, here's how we reconcile the existence of Number one and Janice's statement.

Sometime between Pike's time as seen in "The Menagerie" and WNMHGB, a misogynist admiral became head of Starfleet Command. He bullied the rest of Starfleet Command into specifically excluding women from commanding Starfleet ships and a general order went out to remove woman captains from commmand.

Number One for example had been promoted to captain of a starship like the Enterprise. As per specific and detailed orders from Starfleet Command, her XO releived her as captain and had security goons with drawn phasers set to extreme prejudice escort her to the nearest docked workbee and planting a bootsole on her behind, one of the goons propelled/ejected her out the airlock to sprawl ignominiously onto her face on the deck of the workbee as the blast doors closed behind her.

Out raged Federation citizens vehemently protested the order and the matter went to court. ala Thomas Edison, the misogynist admiral hired a bunch of lawyers and managed to keep the matter tied up in court for years and it took about two decades to finally get the order rescinded.


So there you go, a perfectly reasonable explanation assuming Janice Lester was right and Starfleet really was specifically barring women from commanding starships at the time of "Turnabout Intruder".

Robert

 

[Tenacity]

Number One comes up occasionally in this and past discussions on this matter.

From what I read on the internet (modern day naval service), when Kirk would say give the con to an officer (say Lt. Sulu) that isn't designating Sulu as the ships new assigned commanding officer. Sulu is "the captain's representative," Con and officer of the deck aren't quite the same thing (again modern day), but during TOS they seem to be basically synonymous.

If Kirk and other senior officers above Sulu were killed while Sulu was "minding the store," that would not automatically make Sulu captain. He would remain temporarily in charge and yes effectively in command until starfleet decided who would be assigned as the new captain.

And it would be the same story with Lieutenant Number One if something happen to Pike. She would remain temporarily in charge until starfleet make a decision as to who would be assigned as captain.

Apparently (modern day again) first officer is a nice stepping stone on a career. But it doesn't guarantee a later assignment to being captain of a ship. It's fairly common to move from first officer to a shore assignment. Chekov was a first officer at one point in his starfleet career, but there's no on screen indication that he was subsequently assigned as a starship captain.

Lieutenant Number One might have advanced as far as she was going to. She wasn't one day going to be a starship captain.

But realistically the vast majority of male officers in starfleet weren't going to be one either.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'm guessing that most Captains don't get Ships or Star Ships to command.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I'm guessing that most Captains don't get Ships or Star Ships to command.

Possibly not. Commodore Stocker was taking over Starbase 10 in "The Deadly Years" and he'd never served aboard a starship.

Realistically, there would have to be far more people in Starfleet stationed on planets or starbases than there would be aboard a starship.

 

[Hofner]

Despite the little scenario I posted, I don't think anyone's saying Number One is guaranteed to be given a starship to command. We're saying if Lester's right, she is temporarily commanding the Enterprise knowing she will never be given official command because she's female.

She knows the possibility is open to any male lieutenant serving with or under her but not for her.

Or like my scenario says, sometime between Pike and Kirk, the opportunity for females to be given command of a starship was shut with a resounding, T'Bonz-style CLANG!

And what was done if at the time, there was at least one woman commanding a starship, was she relieved of command or was there a grandfather clause?

Robert

 

[BK613]

US Navy Regs Chapter 9 covers the topic of "Senior Officer Present" (which IMO deals with the Number 1 scenario).
The senior officer present is the highest ranking Naval or Naval Reserve officer who:
1. Is on active duty,
2. Is eligible for command at sea,
3. And, in "command of any part of the Department of the Navy in the locality or within an area prescribed by competent authority."

The tl:dr version of command at sea is "unrestricted line officer" part of which covers the eligibility of standing those duty watches like Officer of the Watch that @Tenacity mentioned. You essentially cannot stand those watches without being eligible for command at sea.

Spoiler: Command at US Navy

0902. Eligibility for command at sea
All officers of the line of the Navy, including Naval Reserve, on active duty, except those designated for the performance of engineering, aeronautical engineering or special duties, and except those limited duty officers who are not authorized to perform all deck duties afloat, are eligible for command at sea.

Restricted Line
LDO

 

[BillJ]

Possibly not. Commodore Stocker was taking over Starbase 10 in "The Deadly Years" and he'd never served aboard a starship.

Realistically, there would have to be far more people in Starfleet stationed on planets or starbases than there would be aboard a starship.

I'm wanting to say that the JAG officer from TNG's "Measure of a Man" held the rank of captain.

 

[Jayson1]

Just had a thought. What if Janice encountered someone or a couple of someones in Starfleet who was sexist and said something about how woman make bad captains and she has generalized that all Starfleet people think that way even though you have actual proof of female captains. Maybe she is talking about a mindset she thinks exists as opposed to something dealing with strict facts in terms how many female captains actually are in the fleet.


Jason

 

[J.T.B.]

So there you go, a perfectly reasonable explanation assuming Janice Lester was right and Starfleet really was specifically barring women from commanding starships at the time of "Turnabout Intruder".

That's far from reasonable; it's not really believable at all. There is no way a credible government in the world today would allow an individual to single-handedly revoke established rights from a segment of its citizens. The individual admiral could not maintain the organization's legal position on his own authority. The legislative would investigate, withhold funding etc. The executive could simply remove the officer from his position. The idea of that kind of thing happening in Starfleet makes the Federation sound like some kind of military dictatorship.

From what I read on the internet (modern day naval service), when Kirk would say give the con to an officer (say Lt. Sulu) that isn't designating Sulu as the ships new assigned commanding officer. Sulu is "the captain's representative," Con and officer of the deck aren't quite the same thing (again modern day), but during TOS they seem to be basically synonymous.

If Kirk and other senior officers above Sulu were killed while Sulu was "minding the store," that would not automatically make Sulu captain. He would remain temporarily in charge and yes effectively in command until starfleet decided who would be assigned as the new captain.

That is somewhat confused. There are operational and administrative sides of organization. The actual operations of the ship are divided into watches and the Officer of the Deck is in charge of one watch, according to a schedule drawn up by the CO and XO. During that watch, the OOD is responsible for the ship's navigation and safe movement, operational communications, running any scheduled tests or drills, and generally keeping the ship on its task. But the OODs will also have a set of orders requiring them to notify the captain of any number of things, day or night, like if certain weather/sea states occur, if they encounter certain traffic, if the tactical situation changes etc. At the end of four hours, someone else takes over as OOD as scheduled. The captain can take over at any time.

(As an aside: Officer of the Deck is a US term, other navies call it Officer of the Watch. It was called Officer of the Deck originally because on a sailing vessel he had to actually be out on deck at all times so he could observe any change in the wind and have the sails trimmed accordingly.)

The OOD is not responsible for the administrative side of the ship, countless issues like who on sick call, how many gallons of paint are left, why the starboard shaft is vibrating at a certain RPM, what the admiral wants accomplished by the end of next week etc. That captain is responsible for both sides, all the time.

Who is OOD is not related to who is in line to take over for the CO. Anybody, even the most junior officer aboard, can be OOD for a watch if they are judged qualified. The only way an officer can take over for the commanding officer is to be the assigned XO or, after the that, the next most senior unrestricted line officer aboard. So if Sulu was the most senior officer left after everyone above him were killed, he would be the commanding officer, responsible for everything until relieved by another more senior officer, whether he had been OOD at the time or not.

And it would be the same story with Lieutenant Number One if something happen to Pike. She would remain temporarily in charge until starfleet make a decision as to who would be assigned as captain.

Someone has to be in command at all times. If the captain is not available, the next in line takes over and gets the full responsibility, as Number One did in "The Menagerie" and Spock did in "The Tholian Web."

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I'm wanting to say that the JAG officer from TNG's "Measure of a Man" held the rank of captain.

Phillpa Louvois? Yup, she did.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

So there you go, a perfectly reasonable explanation assuming Janice Lester was right and Starfleet really was specifically barring women from commanding starships at the time of "Turnabout Intruder".

That's far from reasonable; it's not really believable at all. There is no way a credible government in the world today would allow an individual to single-handedly revoke established rights from a segment of its citizens.

I'm pretty sure that hofner's post was meant satirically. That's how I took it, at least.

 

[BK613]

I'm wanting to say that the JAG officer from TNG's "Measure of a Man" held the rank of captain.

Phillpa Louvois? Yup, she did.

In regards to Lester's comment, I think we are talking Captain as in Commanding Officer, not Captain as in rank. There are many, many officers that have the rank of Captain (and above) in the Navy that are ineligible for sea command. Don't see why Starfleet would be any different.

 

[YLu]

TOS doesn't depict a perfect world, despite anything Roddenberry might have insisted after the fact.

Yeah, but it's not as if the only two options are perfect or massively sexist.

I imagine most people don't want the world of Star Trek to be either of those...

 

[Hofner]

I haven't been able to figure out yet how to quote but,

@JonnyQuest037 As per your post number 171, (Which is between 170.9999 and 171.0001) You are exactly right, I was being satirical.

I just made up a totally ridiculous story and deadpanned it, I even included a gaggle of lawyers.


Robert

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I haven't been able to figure out yet how to quote...

Highlight a section of text in someone else's post. You should see a box below that reads "+ Quote I Reply." There's also "+ Quote" and "Reply" functions at the bottom of each comment if you want to respond to an entire post rather than just an excerpt.

I believe you should be able to do all of that at the rank of Commodore. Hope this helps!

@JonnyQuest037 As per your post number 171, (Which is between 170.9999 and 171.0001) You are exactly right, I was being satirical.

I just made up a totally ridiculous story and deadpanned it, I even included a gaggle of lawyers.

Funny stuff, Robert.

 

[Tenacity]

Realistically, there would have to be far more people in Starfleet stationed on planets or starbases than there would be aboard a starship.

commodore stone said not one man in a million could do what you and I have done, command a starship.

and yes, he said "man."

She knows the possibility is open to any male lieutenant serving with or under her but not for her.

most likely not any male.

even though you have actual proof of female captains.

during the tos era, where?

Someone has to be in command at all times. If the captain is not available, the next in line takes over and gets the full responsibility, as Number One did in "The Menagerie" and Spock did in "The Tholian Web."

isn't that basically what I said?

The idea of that kind of thing happening in Starfleet makes the Federation sound like some kind of military dictatorship.

or it's a matter largely determined member by member, within their particular segment of starfleet occupied almost solely by their own species, where they figure out many of their own procedures internally. just because a tos era human woman stalls at lieutenant, doesn't mean a andorian female in a andorian service would also.

Yeah, but it's not as if the only two options are perfect or massively sexist.

no, most likely it's a pretty good society. but imperfect to one degree or another in lots of different places. just like a real world.

I imagine most people don't want the world of Star Trek to be either of those...

from my time on this board, what people want is everything from utopian pollyanna's society to people who desperately want to see section 31 around every corner.

 

[Henoch]

If only we can retcon the line to something like:

"Your world of starship captains doesn't admit me. It isn't fair."​

Then we wouldn't be having this discussion, rather a discussion as to why only Lester was not fit command. Ah, the simple life...

 

[Guy Gardener]

I suddenly believe that it would be interesting if T'Pol has always been the Captain of the USS Intrepid.

 

[Henoch]

I suddenly believe that it would be interesting if T'Pol has always been the Captain of the USS Intrepid.

...then killed by the space ameba? NOOOO!

 

[uniderth]

I suddenly believe that it would be interesting if T'Pol has always been the Captain of the USS Intrepid.

...then killed by the space ameba? NOOOO!

...and have her be part of Star Trek continuity? NOOOO!