Why is toxic fandom destroying everything?

[Timewalker]

I'm just going to be blunt here, of course hating a gender swapped character just because they're gender swapped is bigoted. You're not liking a character solely because of their gender, so that is pretty much as bigoted as you can get.
Now if there is more to why you don't like that, like you don't like the way they were written as a person of that new gender, or if there is some element to the character that only works if they are their original gender, than no it's not.

No, it's actually not bigoted. It's called preferring the characters be portrayed as they were in the original source material. And your third point is exactly why I don't like Liet-Kynes as female. It makes ZERO sense to have a woman in that role, for the many reasons I've already mentioned. And for the people who try to make this about race, they can go do (something improbable). This isn't about race. It's about Villeneuve making up stupid excuses for shoehorning an actress into a part that is supposed to be played by a man.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

No, it's actually not bigoted. It's called preferring the characters be portrayed as they were in the original source material.

I get the impression that a percentage of people don't really feel this need for faithful adaptation or consistency in the same way, and they just assume that people who don't like big changes must be bigoted, because why else would anyone care?

Making new characters really is the best solution to maximise happiness amongst the most people I reckon.

 

[JD]

No, it's actually not bigoted. It's called preferring the characters be portrayed as they were in the original source material. And your third point is exactly why I don't like Liet-Kynes as female. It makes ZERO sense to have a woman in that role, for the many reasons I've already mentioned. And for the people who try to make this about race, they can go do (something improbable). This isn't about race. It's about Villeneuve making up stupid excuses for shoehorning an actress into a part that is supposed to be played by a man.

While I may disagree with you on how important it is, the fact you do have reasons beyond just the gender of the character, I wouldn't consider your dislike for the new Liet-Kynes to be bigoted.

 

[fireproof78]

Making new characters really is the best solution to maximise happiness amongst the most people I reckon.

Or new properties all together.

Take a risk.

 

[DigificWriter]

I get the impression that a percentage of people don't really feel this need for faithful adaptation

There's no such thing as 'faithful adaptation'; there's just adaptation.

 

[The Lensman]

Let me guess, you wanted a 1:1 of the EU?

I've read exactly 2 Star Wars books in my life and I read them when these books were first published.

The first was "Star Wars: From The Adventures of Luke Skywalker" (second edition 1977)
The second was "Splinter Of The Minds Eye: From The Further Adventures of Luke Skywalker" (first edition 1978)

So no, I didn't.

What I wanted was for Rey to be Luke (or Leia's) daughter (sans British accent of course) and a continuation of their family saga. I wanted TPTB as well as the directors to understand what they had been handed and worked to present a coherent, trilogy wide story. There should've been someone like Fiege with the power to guide the trilogy so that we didn't get one director setting things up, only for the next director to come in, want to make his own mark on things and just shit all over the things that were set up in the first movie. Then the original guy comes back and shits on the previous guy, and makes a film that looks like something ChatGPT created. I mean, these guys weren't handed just any old film series. It's literally one of the most important in motion picture history. And after all the Prequel hate, they knew they had to knock it out of the park. Force Awakens got by on memberberries, the rest just on name. Which is a shame because they had a great cast with the best chemistry since the originals.

I like Rey, Finn, Poe, and Rose. Coulda done without BB8 because I remember reading, I think in the Time magazine that came out when Empire came out, that Threepio and R2 were the only characters with any sizable roles in all 9 movies. So didn't like that they weren't as prominent as they should've been. So no, aside from wishing that Rey was Luke or Leia's daughter, I don't really have any ideas of the story I would've liked to see. Just something that felt more cohesive and less half assed that had it's own story to tell without "rebels vs empi....I mean First Order" dynamics and another Death Star (but bigger!) weapon. The PT was able to tell it's own unique story with Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda, the ST should've been able to do the same. And no, I did not want a film that was about Luke and the gang in their older years. Their screen time and importance to the story should've been no more than Obi-Wan's and Yoda's in the OT. The ST is not Luke, Leia or Han's story any more as it should be.

Aside from that desire from the ST, I don't really care what's done in other Star Wars films like Rogue One / Solo or in the various tv shows. Let those be experimental in tone, cinematography etc. The 9 film Saga was not the place for that.

I'm happy that Daisy Ridley is coming back for a new movie featuring Rey. Don't know if it's a stand alone or a trilogy or what. If the latter, for fuck's sake give this woman the trilogy she deserves. Make sure there's one guiding vision and hand behind it.

 

[Anwar]

What I wanted was for Rey to be Luke (or Leia's) daughter (sans British accent of course) and a continuation of their family saga.

But having SW revolve around the same bloodline is....well it's lazy.

 

[The Lensman]

But having SW revolve around the same bloodline is....well it's lazy.

It's not. This was a 9 movie story about three generations of one family, that was the story. Beginning, middle and end. That's how stories work. It was the Flash Gordon serials writ large and that story, like all serials, ends.

At this point, I'd be happy if they retconned Rey into Luke or Leia's daughter. It wouldn't be any lamer than the Palpatine reveal and I think fans would think "yeah, it's kinda lame, but I really hated her being Palpatines grandkid or whatever, so I'm good."

 

[fireproof78]

But having SW revolve around the same bloodline is....well it's lazy.

But, that's what Star Wars is based on. It's an amalgamation of Flash Gordon, Dune, and mythological tropes. And that's usually involving bloodlines. So, it's not lazy so much as it is remaining true to the initial inspiration.

In my opinion, Rey should have been Obi-Wan's granddaughter, and have Ben Solo representing the New Jedi, and unite Mandalore with the New Republic to combat Snoke's First Order. No Palpatine.

 

[The Lensman]

But, that's what Star Wars is based on. It's an amalgamation of Flash Gordon, Dune, and mythological tropes. And that's usually involving bloodlines. So, it's not lazy so much as it is remaining true to the initial inspiration.

In my opinion, Rey should have been Obi-Wan's granddaughter, and have Ben Solo representing the New Jedi, and unite Mandalore with the New Republic to combat Snoke's First Order. No Palpatine.

I've seen people suggest that Rey should've been Obi-Wan's granddaughter (that was a theory for awhile) but outside of her British accent, I never latched onto why she should be. Not sure about the First Order, at least as presented. Realistically, there'd be some Admirals and Generals who could've fled the New Republic and started their own stellar kingdoms out on the Rim and slowly built their power base up to challenge the New Republic, but then we're just edging back into "Galactic Civil War" territory. I suppose there's a compelling story in the previous scenario, but for the love of god, no super weapons.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Star Wars exists because Lucas couldn’t get the rights to Flash Gordon, so he made his own adventure tale of good vs evil spanning several generations. No one was asking for Star Wars to be “challenged” or “subverted”.

Quite correct. By 1983--the year of Return of the Jedi's release, audiences were fully invested in / accepting of the classical linear myth Lucas crafted. The story's time-honored template was straightforward, perfectly selling the entire story, one that did not need subversion or to be challenged. That was never the point of Star Wars.

You want to do those things? Do them in your own film or trilogy like Rogue One or Andor.

Its easier to glom onto and drape your interests into existing, successful IPs--especially a "film universe" instead of creating something entirely new, where one can build their own world from an (alleged) organic creative interest.

The 9 movie saga was to be Flash Gordon meets Kurosawa in an all ages tale of good vs evil. It was never meant to be anything else. If you don’t want to do that, you’re on the wrong film series.

How dare you make sense!

Having said that, the ST was an absolute cluster fuck that wasted a fantastic cast while substituting memberberries with bloated spectacle overseen by two idiots who apparently didn’t understand how important it was to get these movies right. The lack of oversight and quality control by TPTB is astounding. The whole trilogy was like bad fanfic.

Agreed. The direction and focus of the ST was misguided from the start, but the TPTB (including Disney at the top of it all) were not going to attempt to tell a coherent, interesting story, which would have been the case if the struggle of Finn (taken at childhood to serve the new Big Bad) had been the new hero's journey. As a character he had every building block to be the new focus of the series, but was deliberately shoved into a corner (and attached to stereotypes, like the one black male character being a freaking janitor who happened to wear a trooper outfit) after TFA. Nope, Disney, Kennedy, et al., were not interested in going what had the potential to be a stronger storyline for a heroic lead.

 

[fireproof78]

Not sure about the First Order, at least as presented. Realistically, there'd be some Admirals and Generals who could've fled the New Republic and started their own stellar kingdoms out on the Rim and slowly built their power base up to challenge the New Republic, but then we're just edging back into "Galactic Civil War" territory. I suppose there's a compelling story in the previous scenario, but for the love of god, no super weapons.

Honestly, the First Order bothers me the least of the ST things. I see it as a foreign power that people didn't know about due to being out in the Unknown Regions/Uncharted Territories. I really liked the TLJ Visual Dictionary had a much more interesting in Snoke's origins, and I think that would have been more interesting to explore.

 

[Skipper]

I'm at the Episode three of The Acolyte and I'm still wondering when it will become the Worst Thing on Earth because I'm still enjoying it.

It's not a masterpiece but it's a perfectly ok piece of entertainment. At this point I really think people are bashing it just for the views.

I ask someone who sacrificed their sanity for us: is there any reasonable point in the criticism of this show or is it all a litany of woke-mary sue-virtue signaling etc etc?

 

[Anson Mount Seleya]

I ask someone who sacrificed their sanity for us: is there any reasonable point in the criticism of this show or is it all a litany of woke-mary sue-virtue signaling etc etc?

The fourth and fifth episodes do have some pacing issues and there's a plot twist everyone saw coming. Plus the fifth ends on a pretty dumb cliffhanger, but otherwise, I'd agree with your overall assessment of The Acolyte, it's no masterpiece, but it's not The Worst Thing Ever like half the internet will have you think.

 

[Anwar]

It's not. This was a 9 movie story about three generations of one family, that was the story. Beginning, middle and end. That's how stories work. It was the Flash Gordon serials writ large and that story, like all serials, ends.

But, that's what Star Wars is based on. It's an amalgamation of Flash Gordon, Dune, and mythological tropes. And that's usually involving bloodlines. So, it's not lazy so much as it is remaining true to the initial inspiration.

But that's like saying that Captain Picard had to be Kirks' Grandson or something, or Barry Allen had to be Jay Garricks' son.

Quite correct. By 1983--the year of Return of the Jedi's release, audiences were fully invested in / accepting of the classical linear myth Lucas crafted. The story's time-honored template was straightforward, perfectly selling the entire story, one that did not need subversion or to be challenged. That was never the point of Star Wars.

Lucas already challenged that template and the Mythology when he did "I am your father". It was never that straightforward.

Its easier to glom onto and drape your interests into existing, successful IPs--especially a "film universe" instead of creating something entirely new, where one can build their own world from an (alleged) organic creative interest.

So stagnate, very good.

Agreed. The direction and focus of the ST was misguided from the start, but the TPTB (including Disney at the top of it all) were not going to attempt to tell a coherent, interesting story,

They would have, if they'd had anything to work with for Post-ROTJ...but they didn't.

which would have been the case if the struggle of Finn (taken at childhood to serve the new Big Bad) had been the new hero's journey. As a character he had every building block to be the new focus of the series, but was deliberately shoved into a corner (and attached to stereotypes, like the one black male character being a freaking janitor who happened to wear a trooper outfit) after TFA. Nope, Disney, Kennedy, et al., were not interested in going what had the potential to be a stronger storyline for a heroic lead.

Finn and Poe were never meant to be more than Plot Devices to get Rey involved in the plot, neither of them were even supposed to survive TFA to begin with. The plot of the Sequels was always going to revolve around Rey and Ren.

 

[Skipper]

The fourth and fifth episodes do have some pacing issues and there's a plot twist everyone saw coming. Plus the fifth ends on a pretty dumb cliffhanger, but otherwise, I'd agree with your overall assessment of The Acolyte, it's no masterpiece, but it's not The Worst Thing Ever like half the internet will have you think.

Yes, but the negative reactions started already after the first two episodes, right?

 

[fireproof78]

But that's like saying that Captain Picard had to be Kirks' Grandson or something, or Barry Allen had to be Jay Garricks' son.

Wasn't aware those franchises were based on mythology like Star Wars.

 

[theenglish]

Regarding Star Wars, we are now closer than ever to what Lucas envisioned, at least as far as on screen material goes.. Originally, the Luke Skywalker sage was thought of as one story in a much larger world. Lucas said in the 70s that he would love other story tellers to write unrelated stories set in the Star Wars universe.

 

[fireproof78]

Almost like mythology in a way, and storytellers adding on their own aspects and influences.

Almost like cultures shift and move in time.

 

[PCz911]

I've read exactly 2 Star Wars books in my life and I read them when these books were first published.

The first was "Star Wars: From The Adventures of Luke Skywalker" (second edition 1977)
The second was "Splinter Of The Minds Eye: From The Further Adventures of Luke Skywalker" (first edition 1978)

So no, I didn't.

What I wanted was for Rey to be Luke (or Leia's) daughter (sans British accent of course) and a continuation of their family saga. I wanted TPTB as well as the directors to understand what they had been handed and worked to present a coherent, trilogy wide story. There should've been someone like Fiege with the power to guide the trilogy so that we didn't get one director setting things up, only for the next director to come in, want to make his own mark on things and just shit all over the things that were set up in the first movie. Then the original guy comes back and shits on the previous guy, and makes a film that looks like something ChatGPT created. I mean, these guys weren't handed just any old film series. It's literally one of the most important in motion picture history. And after all the Prequel hate, they knew they had to knock it out of the park. Force Awakens got by on memberberries, the rest just on name. Which is a shame because they had a great cast with the best chemistry since the originals.

I like Rey, Finn, Poe, and Rose. Coulda done without BB8 because I remember reading, I think in the Time magazine that came out when Empire came out, that Threepio and R2 were the only characters with any sizable roles in all 9 movies. So didn't like that they weren't as prominent as they should've been. So no, aside from wishing that Rey was Luke or Leia's daughter, I don't really have any ideas of the story I would've liked to see. Just something that felt more cohesive and less half assed that had it's own story to tell without "rebels vs empi....I mean First Order" dynamics and another Death Star (but bigger!) weapon. The PT was able to tell it's own unique story with Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda, the ST should've been able to do the same. And no, I did not want a film that was about Luke and the gang in their older years. Their screen time and importance to the story should've been no more than Obi-Wan's and Yoda's in the OT. The ST is not Luke, Leia or Han's story any more as it should be.

Aside from that desire from the ST, I don't really care what's done in other Star Wars films like Rogue One / Solo or in the various tv shows. Let those be experimental in tone, cinematography etc. The 9 film Saga was not the place for that.

I'm happy that Daisy Ridley is coming back for a new movie featuring Rey. Don't know if it's a stand alone or a trilogy or what. If the latter, for fuck's sake give this woman the trilogy she deserves. Make sure there's one guiding vision and hand behind it.

Very good points. I always felt sorry for daisy, as I found her a very charismatic actress stuck in a train wreck of a story line. Amazing that they didn’t plot out the trilogy in advance.