Why is the Trek community so negative about Voyager?

[You_Will_Fail]

So...
I am actually a bit confused about this whole thread. What's the deal with the fighting here?

We love Star Trek and enjoy discussing/arguing its finer points!
I like Voyager a lot, heck I'd say I love it too despite its shortcomings. Nevertheless I enjoy discussing its flaws as much as its strengths.

 

[Anwar]

I think that things were just too damned rushed on the show, mainly because Berman and co wanted to wait but Paramount and UPN wouldn't let them.

The Kazon, put some more time into them and don't make them look like Klingons and they would've been fine adversaries for the first season or maybe first two seasons.

The Array, simply have it be impossible for it to send them home and another major plot hole is covered. Like maybe it needed the Caretaker itself to power the teleport thing and he was just too weak to send them back before he died.

The Maquis, either develop them better as anti-Fed types or just use the Romulans as the other crew.

That sort of stuff.

 

[zar]

No, if it turned out the entire episode was just his VR simulation and it ended with him obviously traumatized and unsure THEN it would've sucked hard if they just glossed it over.

But if they weren't prepared to make O'Brien a radically changed man then they shouldn't have done the episode.

None of the VOY episodes ended with the idea that they'd been permanently affected by their experiences, so there wasn't some big aura of "permanently affected".

What constitutes "obviously traumatized"? Do we really need lines of dialog explicitly stating that the characters were affected? The nature of the events themselves make it clear enough.

To say that that version of Hard Time would have sucked while all of VOY's episodes are immune because they didn't make obvious the "idea that they'd been permanently affected"... is an even sillier double standard than what you've accused us of having.

 

[flemm]

What's the deal with the fighting here?

I will attempt to explain the dynamic that produces the animosity to the best of my ability. Basically, on the one hand, Voyager is a show that gets dumped on a lot, at least by sci-fi fans that make a habit of posting on-line or creating video or text reviews, that kind of thing. These people are not deluded and don't have some kind of repressed desire to see Voyager turned into nuBSG or whatever, but they do tend to all say basically the same thing over and over again, and they or others like them have been making the same points for years: inconsistent and often bad writing, poor exploitation of the show's premise, lack of continuity, etc. Valid points, but really there is nothing new to be said on the subject at this point. I mean, sfdebris is a site that devotes a video or text review (sometimes both) to basically mocking every episode of Voyager in a thorough manner and explaining why the show was a complete catastrophe.

Then, on the other hand, you have the fans of Voyager. The show does have plenty of fans on-line and doubtless many more who do not post on-line and are therefore blissfully unaware of what a terrible show some people think it is. These fans like the show for what it is and are sick of hearing the same criticisms that they have already heard a dozen times repeated ad nauseum. Some of these fans would like people to either enjoy the show for what it is, or not. Others would doubtless like it if critics of the show would just STFU and keep their startling revelations about the show's lack of continuity to themselves. An understandable point of view, if somewhat hopeless of ever being accomplished on an internet forum such as this.

That is the best I can come to understanding the massive trainwreck of the latter half of this thread I think both sides have a point. I don't like the show, but if I did, I'm pretty sure I would be sick of hearing about how much it sucked by now.

 

[kimc]

Uhhhh... wasn't Janeway going to LEAVE HIM THERE TO BE KILLED? I thought it was only Chakotay stepping in that saved Lessing. That makes Janeway guilty of attempted murder, not just "leaving a guy tied up to a chair for a few minutes."

She believed he was going to talk before that happened. Chakotay knew he wasn't buying the bluff and stepped in. Would Janeway have allowed it to happen? We don't find out for sure so it's a matter of personal opinion. Mine is she would have stopped it at the very last moment. When she tells Chakotay later that she "went too far" it's because she was letting her anger get the better of her instead of following the Starfleet principles she had dedicated her life to.

Those same principles would have required her to turn him, Ransom, and all the other conspirators over to the aliens in any event.

I agree. Unfortunately, given the difficulties in communication and the fact the aliens were attacking Voyager at every opportunity the chances for a diplomatic turnover were slim...

 

[stj]

You don't appear to have understood what I said, so I'll make my position more clear:

I have no issue with discussing BSG's merits/failings, I did so yesterday with YARN. I have no interest in discussing it with you because your attitude about the subject has indicated that you are not open to reasonable debate. You don't like BSG? That's fine. You want to discuss why you don't like BSG? That's fine too. You want to assert that BSG failed because you didn't like it? Sorry, not interested.

I understood what you said quite well. Since I never asked you to discuss BSG, or even addressed comments about BSG to you, this is yet more bullshit. I quote the part about your remarks, from my first post in the thread, typo and all. (Sorry folks but with a certain kind of poster you have to do these things.)

PS This crossed with another post that characterizes Janeway in Equinox as pursuing a "vendetta against a captain that crossed the line," which falsifies the comparison. Ransom was murdering people. That's not crossing the line, that's evil.

As one of the murderers, if Janeway had let Lessing die at the hands of one of the aliens whose friends and relatives he had helped murder, it would have been justice done. As it was, the script flinched and explicitly stated that Janeway had no intention of letting him die, believing he would confess.

It was Chakotay who crossed the line. He wanted to help a murderer escape justice only because he was one of "us," without a thought for saving the prospective victims of Ransom's band of murderers. The script conveniently excused Chakotay from the consequences of his crime by suddenly producing the same aliens where you shouldn't expect them (something this poster explicitly criticizes!)

The stupidity of all this is quite sympotmatic of the negativity about Voyager on this bbs.

As everyone is now reminded, you can't even debate Voyager. You're the one who needs to demonstrate that there was dramatic potential in the idiotic tripe about shortages and hardship and conflict and pristine ship. Which is impossible since the anti-Voyager BSG either did the same damn thing or failed to make it interesting. BSG is a failure because that mystical shit was not just some incidental flaw, like a zit, but turned out to be the (rotten) heart of the series. Of course it's easier to ignore what I actually said (repeatedly!) rather than to defend the stinking pile of garbage that is BattleStar Galactica.

The exchange with YARN has a certain symptomatic interest. Your rejoinder to the criticisms of BSG, that BSG fulfilled that potential better was pathetic, but that didn't matter because you both agree on the essential but evaded issue in the context of the thread. Which is, how can there be any potential to fail to fulfill when the anti-Voyager either did the same damned thing or failed to make it dramatically interesting? Basically you ignored what he said against you, while clutching at his agreement. (Apologies if YARN is literally a she.)

But the lame and indefensible assertion that BSG did enough more to qualify as acceptably survivalist bears on Darkwing Duck's repeated efforts to falsify the argument. It is a fact that Voyager did show some of that stuff (to its detriment, because the whole idea is stupid, stupid, stupid.) The goalposts for how much of it was enough always get moved, and they always get moved farther than for any other show, especially BSG. Which, for the umpteenth time, was deliberately modeled as an anti-Voyager. Falling for that ploy is gullible. Defending it is ill-mannered.

 

[CaptJamesScott]

Maquis crew joins Starfleet crew with little to no resistance.
Voyager survives conflicts with dozens of hostile alien civilizations, some of which have more advanced technology and obviously more vessels at their disposal.
The crew develops and innovates technology that the greatest minds in the Federation couldn't.
Captain Janeway is seemingly a jack of all trades except she's not good at everything, she's great.


These are just a few of the things I disliked about Voyager. I still liked the show, but it got to be a little ridiculous. The crew was just too good. And the odds just too insurmountable.

 

[exodus]

Maquis crew joins Starfleet crew with little to no resistance.
Voyager survives conflicts with dozens of hostile alien civilizations, some of which have more advanced technology and obviously more vessels at their disposal.
The crew develops and innovates technology that the greatest minds in the Federation couldn't.
Captain Janeway is seemingly a jack of all trades except she's not good at everything, she's great.


These are just a few of the things I disliked about Voyager. I still liked the show, but it got to be a little ridiculous. The crew was just too good. And the odds just too insurmountable.

Minus the Maquis, it sounds like you just described Kirk and TOS too me.

 

[TheGodBen]

As everyone is now reminded, you can't even debate Voyager.

Which is why my popular Voyager review thread was such a failure.

Oh, wait, no. It was fairly popular.

Which is impossible since the anti-Voyager BSG either did the same damn thing or failed to make it interesting.

From dictionary.com

Fact:
1. Something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
2. Something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.

Opinion:
1. A belief or judgement that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. A personal view, attitude, or appraisal.


Get back to me when you learn the difference between those two things.

 

[Harvey]

...especially BSG. Which, for the umpteenth time, was deliberately modeled as an anti-Voyager. Falling for that ploy is gullible. Defending it is ill-mannered.

Battlestar Galactica is often compared to Star Trek: Voyager, sure, and for good reason. Galactica used several writers involved with Star Trek (including TNG, DS9, and VOY). The basic premises of both shows are the same: a starship, cut off from the society it came from, searches for the planet Earth. Of course, that's radically simplifying the premises of both shows.

But deliberately modeled as an anti-Voyager? You'll have to find an interview, podcast, or some sort of comment by Ronald D. Moore or David Eick to support that claim. Both were very active on the internet during the show's production, so it shouldn't be hard, if it was said. You could point to this interview, but that doesn't seem to be what Moore is saying. He does state that Battlestar Galactica was produced with the intention of being an "anti-Star Trek" series, but he's talking about the whole franchise, not singling out Star Trek: Voyager.

Rather, when Moore points out the "lineage" of Galactica, he singles out DS9. He does indicate that he would have taken VOY down a darker path had he been given the reigns, but not to the extent of Galactica. Certainly his brief experience there influenced him (who would claim otherwise?), but hardly to the point that he wanted to make a show that was the "anti-Star Trek: Voyager."

 

[Anwar]

What about that silly rant he gave about how nothing in the show was real, when he left?

And anyways, the way he got Galactica's premise to work was by doing stuff that just wouldn't have made any sense in VOY (having an empty universe, "magic" FTL that couldn't be tracked and blinked you anywhere, etc).

That's not to mention the double standards like how it's okay for the Cylons to keep following the humans but it's never okay for any of VOY's aliens to follow them, stuff like that.

Moore just couldn't stand the idea of the VOY crew being capable of working together for the common good.

 

[Destructor]

Moore just couldn't stand the idea of the VOY crew being capable of working together for the common good.

That's such a load of bantha poodoo. Anyone who watched Galactica knows that one of the primary themes of the show was about working together for the common good. Anyone who read his exit interviews know that what frustrated him about the show was the lack of continuity and consequences, precisely the same thing many fans of the show have said was their primary gripe with Voyager, and one of the real strengths of BSG.

 

[Destructor]

Rather, when Moore points out the "lineage" of Galactica, he singles out DS9.

Just so. I often say to my girlfriend that DS9 is the natural stepping stone between TNG and BSG.

VOY is the natural stepping stone between TNG and Smallville. Just kidding!

 

[Admiral Shran]

Moore just couldn't stand the idea of the VOY crew being capable of working together for the common good.

I don't remember the one episode he wrote or the one he has story credit for having anything to do with the main characters "turning into space pirates, everyone being at each other's thoarts, or the characters being weaklings who let every single little thing get to them."

In fact, in those two episodes, the crew does nothing BUT work together.

I also don't remember Moore trying to introduce "tons and tons of recurring characters who ate up screentime and the budget" or "an invincible Borg who were unable to be defeated and unable to escape from which would have ended the show in a nanosecond."

 

[Majikstranger]

Voyager is an abortion and anyone who thinks otherwise is just lying to themselves. This has nothing to do with a woman Captain it has to do with the writing. If your just watching the episodes and not taking them too serious, then yes you may like Voyager. But, if you actually are keeping track and considering the situations they encounter and the moral dilemmas and what seems like should be logical character behavior then you notice something is way off. The destroyed the image of the borg, Janeway was a psychopath and half the other characters where just there. Just sitting there waiting for some story that never came.
The only thing that made it watchable was the fact that it was star trek and it gave us a star trek fix and its nice seeing the setting and characters we love, but its painful watching them destroyed.
I on the other hand had no problem with it becoming the seven of nine show as she was pretty good and other then her, what else was going on? As i see it if she hadnt come on board the show would of been dead even quicker.
I dare you to watch the WHOLE VOYAGER series back to back non stop as i did and you will be agreeing with me faster then you would imagine. I watched all of TNG and then all of voyager back to back and then all of ds9 and all of babylon 5 and The original series. You definitely notice alot seeing it all in one shot

 

[You_Will_Fail]

. They destroyed the image of the borg

Oh please! First Contact destroyed the Borg.
They won't attack us if they don't consider us a threat?
They're walking around with phasers and they're not considered a threat? Add to that the introduction of the Borg Queen and you can see it was FC that really screwed up the Borg.

 

[Harvey]

What about that silly rant he gave about how nothing in the show was real, when he left?

Are you referring to this "rant?" Or perhaps this interview?

I see him being frustrated with the shows constant lack of change, as well as the working environment on the writing staff, but nothing about how "nothing in the show was real." Do you have a link to what you're referencing?

That's not to mention the double standards like how it's okay for the Cylons to keep following the humans but it's never okay for any of VOY's aliens to follow them, stuff like that.

Huh?

Moore just couldn't stand the idea of the VOY crew being capable of working together for the common good.

That doesn't seem likely. He does complain that the Maquis were thrown into Starfleet uniforms and afterwards treated as if they had been Starfleet officers from day one, but that's hardly what you're saying.

Oh please! First Contact destroyed the Borg.
They won't attack us if they don't consider us a threat?
They're walking around with phasers and they're not considered a threat? Add to that the introduction of the Borg Queen and you can see it was FC that really screwed up the Borg.

I'll give you the Borg Queen (an interesting idea, but even First Contact treats her as if she's an individual and a leader, despite her earlier claim that she's simply an embodiment of the Collective), but the Borg not attacking armed Starfleet officers was a tradition begun in "Q Who?" and "The Best of Both Worlds."

 

[Amaris]

Voyager is an abortion and anyone who thinks otherwise is just lying to themselves. This has nothing to do with a woman Captain it has to do with the writing. If your just watching the episodes and not taking them too serious, then yes you may like Voyager. But, if you actually are keeping track and considering the situations they encounter and the moral dilemmas and what seems like should be logical character behavior then you notice something is way off. The destroyed the image of the borg, Janeway was a psychopath and half the other characters where just there. Just sitting there waiting for some story that never came.
The only thing that made it watchable was the fact that it was star trek and it gave us a star trek fix and its nice seeing the setting and characters we love, but its painful watching them destroyed.
I on the other hand had no problem with it becoming the seven of nine show as she was pretty good and other then her, what else was going on? As i see it if she hadnt come on board the show would of been dead even quicker.
I dare you to watch the WHOLE VOYAGER series back to back non stop as i did and you will be agreeing with me faster then you would imagine. I watched all of TNG and then all of voyager back to back and then all of ds9 and all of babylon 5 and The original series. You definitely notice alot seeing it all in one shot

No, that can't be it.

 

[RyuRoots]

. They destroyed the image of the borg

Oh please! First Contact destroyed the Borg.
They won't attack us if they don't consider us a threat?
They're walking around with phasers and they're not considered a threat? Add to that the introduction of the Borg Queen and you can see it was FC that really screwed up the Borg.

Disregarding for the moment that you're probably replying to a trollpost, I strenuously disagree on this point. The Borg ignored the TNG crew walking around with phasers out until they started shooting in the TV series, too. And this next bit is opinion, but the Borg were still scary, even with the Queen to me (even if she didn't help). Scorpion was a great start, but...well...

 

[YARN]

I didn't hate the show; I just never really got hooked.

It seemed like they hit the reset button quite a bit.

7 o' 9 was too much like the Spock/Data character and the catsuits almost felt desperate (PLEASE WATCH!).

I wasn't in love with the ship's design (seemed like it was designed like a garden spade).

Neelix wasn't quite Jar Jar binks, but I didn't exactly relish scenes which featured his character.

By the time the show came around, the old Trek routine seemed a bit too familiar.

Their quest to get home never seemed to be all that pressing. We all knew that they wouldn't make it home until the end of the series. Consequently, the bi-weekly announcements that some improvement in navigation or propulsion had shaved X-number of years off the trip always rang hollow.

I think it would have been good if the first two seasons had basically been an extended version of "Year of Hell" -- the crew forced to work together and become one in a time of crisis "Band of Brothers" and all that. Have them make it home at the end of season 2 by some semi-plausible device and then have them sent back out to the Delta Quadrant because of their familiarity with the region to carry on Federation business. It would be interesting to see who would choose to return. It would be interesting to see the holodock "retired" (new doctor gets irritated when the crew brings him back online, etc).