Why hasn't DS9 been represented in NuTrek?

[Lynx]

Didn't DS9 start that, though?

No, I don't think so.

There were episodes in DS9 which can be considered as "dark". But in between them there were many "lighter" episodes as well.

DS9 never became as much doom-and-gloom as most series and movies made after 2000.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

No, I don't think so.

There were episodes in DS9 which can be considered as "dark". But in between them there were many "lighter" episodes as well.

DS9 never became as much doom-and-gloom as most series and movies made after 2000.

No series before or since has gone as dark as DS9, what with the long drawn out wars (plural) where they spent episodes staring at the names of the dead, a final war they basically lost if not for doing many illegal means to win it, a war where Nog lost a leg and has to learn to deal, Jake watches men killed in front of him, Bashir's parents go to prison for being criminal, Dax is murdered for no reason while praying (!!), Section 31, every episode with Kira (she's a terrorist whose mother slept with the leader of the occupying forces!) or any other episode featuring O'Brian in any way, shape or form (name a good moment he ever had, I can't think of any), our beloved spy Garak torturing Odo for 2 episodes straight, "In the Pale Moonlight", War war war war war.

The goofy light comedy episodes where Quark dresses as a woman did nothing to change the overall tone of the series, it was as dark as Trek gets, even to this day.

 

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

It got dark at times, but it certainly wasn't as nihilistic as I found Discovery.

 

[fireproof78]

No series before or since has gone as dark as DS9, what with the long drawn out wars (plural) where they spent episodes staring at the names of the dead, a final war they basically lost if not for doing many illegal means to win it, a war where Nog lost a leg and has to learn to deal, Jake watches men killed in front of him, Bashir's parents go to prison for being criminal, Dax is murdered for no reason while praying (!!), Section 31, every episode with Kira (she's a terrorist whose mother slept with the leader of the occupying forces!) or any other episode featuring O'Brian in any way, shape or form (name a good moment he ever had, I can't think of any), our beloved spy Garak torturing Odo for 2 episodes straight, "In the Pale Moonlight", War war war war war.

The goofy light comedy episodes where Quark dresses as a woman did nothing to change the overall tone of the series, it was as dark as Trek gets, even to this day.

Indeed, and left a bit of a strong negative vibe at the end of a lot of episodes. The characters would soldier on but they would hardly be positive by the end. Even the lighter episodes ended up showing the characters in an odd light.

I like DS9 but I would not call it light.

 

[F. King Daniel]

It got dark at times, but it certainly wasn't as nihilistic as I found Discovery.

When on Earth was Discovery nihilistic? Can you provide any instances?

 

[kkt]

TOS was mostly light, but did have some dark episodes, even the very popular City on the Edge of Forever.

 

[Lynx]

No series before or since has gone as dark as DS9, what with the long drawn out wars (plural) where they spent episodes staring at the names of the dead, a final war they basically lost if not for doing many illegal means to win it, a war where Nog lost a leg and has to learn to deal, Jake watches men killed in front of him, Bashir's parents go to prison for being criminal, Dax is murdered for no reason while praying (!!), Section 31, every episode with Kira (she's a terrorist whose mother slept with the leader of the occupying forces!) or any other episode featuring O'Brian in any way, shape or form (name a good moment he ever had, I can't think of any), our beloved spy Garak torturing Odo for 2 episodes straight, "In the Pale Moonlight", War war war war war.

The goofy light comedy episodes where Quark dresses as a woman did nothing to change the overall tone of the series, it was as dark as Trek gets, even to this day.

I still find it less "dark" than all of today's series and movies with their doomsday scenarios, blood splatter, out-drawn torture scenes and death scenes and boring main characters who it is easier to dislike than to like.

Not to mention the lousy storytelling which is all about to tell everyone that "everything is bad and it's only gonna get worse".

I rathe watch TNG.s Shades Of Gray ten times in a row than waste a minute on current doom-and-gloom series and movies.

 

[Mage]

No series before or since has gone as dark as DS9, what with the long drawn out wars (plural) where they spent episodes staring at the names of the dead, a final war they basically lost if not for doing many illegal means to win it, a war where Nog lost a leg and has to learn to deal, Jake watches men killed in front of him, Bashir's parents go to prison for being criminal, Dax is murdered for no reason while praying (!!), Section 31, every episode with Kira (she's a terrorist whose mother slept with the leader of the occupying forces!) or any other episode featuring O'Brian in any way, shape or form (name a good moment he ever had, I can't think of any), our beloved spy Garak torturing Odo for 2 episodes straight, "In the Pale Moonlight", War war war war war.

The goofy light comedy episodes where Quark dresses as a woman did nothing to change the overall tone of the series, it was as dark as Trek gets, even to this day.

I think what we need to keep in mind, is that for a show in the 90's, DS9 was very dark. And keeping that in mind, it still is. But when comparing it with shows (not just Trek) from the last 15 years, it's not as dark. It stood out back then for its much more somber and darker tone. And yes, when I watch it like that, I consider DS9 a dark show.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

I still find it less "dark" than all of today's series and movies with their doomsday scenarios, blood splatter, out-drawn torture scenes and death scenes and boring main characters who it is easier to dislike than to like.

Not to mention the lousy storytelling which is all about to tell everyone that "everything is bad and it's only gonna get worse".

Again, this is literally season 4-7 of DS9. "Everything is bad and it's only going to get worse" was almost every episode of the 7th season (except the awkwardly placed baseball episode, though that WAS needed because they needed a break from how bad everything was getting out there). I don't see how that's possible to miss. Which episode of season 7 until the finale did any of the characters seem hopeful about the war? "Out-drawn torture scenes" was Garak and Odo. Couldn't stand watching that. Or the Jem'Hadar vs Worf in the internment camp. Main and sub characters were murdered. Are you ignoring the content simply because there was less blood shown in a 90s show despite what they were actually showing us maybe? That's really the only difference to me. Shows didn't do gore back then. But they got their darkness across otherwise.

(And DS9 had its share of characters easier to dislike, but unlike the rest, that's subjective so tougher to argue)

 

[McCoy's Disco Collar]

When on Earth was Discovery nihilistic? Can you provide any instances?

Sure! Glad to.

DS9 was dark, but I found Discovery to wallow in its darkness. DS9 might have introduced Section 31, but they never venerated Section 31. They certainly wouldn't have made Section 31 an ever-looming presence on a hero ship. And then Discovery took the already-tired "evil Admiral" trope and bloated it into Control. And while other series may have dabbled in the Mirror Universe (mostly to have fun playing with different versions of established characters) no other series celebrated the mirror versions in the same way.

And there's the decision to not only not match up with previous series, but to deliberately clash. Which doesn't necessarily bother me in the abstract or in all instances, but after a while it got so obnoxious that they had to pull a "move Springfield 5 miles down the road" soft reboot to get out from under the weight of the mess they had created.

I totally get that many people like Discovery. That's cool, different strokes for different folks etc. But I didn't like it, and the nihilism is one of the main reasons why.

 

[Lynx]

Again, this is literally season 4-7 of DS9. "Everything is bad and it's only going to get worse" was almost every episode of the 7th season (except the awkwardly placed baseball episode, though that WAS needed because they needed a break from how bad everything was getting out there). I don't see how that's possible to miss. Which episode of season 7 until the finale did any of the characters seem hopeful about the war? "Out-drawn torture scenes" was Garak and Odo. Couldn't stand watching that. Or the Jem'Hadar vs Worf in the internment camp. Main and sub characters were murdered. Are you ignoring the content simply because there was less blood shown in a 90s show despite what they were actually showing us maybe? That's really the only difference to me. Shows didn't do gore back then. But they got their darkness across otherwise.

(And DS9 had its share of characters easier to dislike, but unlike the rest, that's subjective so tougher to argue)

I actually agree on your comments about Garak torturing Odo and Worf fight scenes against the Jem'hadar in that camp.

But those were isolated events compared to the constant blood splattering, torture seenes, gore and constant doom-and-gloom that we see in most action and adventures series made in the last 12-14 years.

Despite the darkness in the war as such, there were always hope in DS9 that the Federation and its allies would be victorious in the long run. Compare with series of today when 10 out of 10 has a scenario about a total devastated Earth with no hope, except maybe to escape it in a spaceship on a dystopic trip to nowhere with a crew of losers.

 

[fireproof78]

Again, this is literally season 4-7 of DS9. "Everything is bad and it's only going to get worse" was almost every episode of the 7th season (except the awkwardly placed baseball episode, though that WAS needed because they needed a break from how bad everything was getting out there). I don't see how that's possible to miss. Which episode of season 7 until the finale did any of the characters seem hopeful about the war? "Out-drawn torture scenes" was Garak and Odo. Couldn't stand watching that. Or the Jem'Hadar vs Worf in the internment camp. Main and sub characters were murdered. Are you ignoring the content simply because there was less blood shown in a 90s show despite what they were actually showing us maybe? That's really the only difference to me. Shows didn't do gore back then. But they got their darkness across otherwise.

(And DS9 had its share of characters easier to dislike, but unlike the rest, that's subjective so tougher to argue)

Indeed. Rewatching DS9 when my wife decided to try it was a lesson in just had dark it got. And it lingered over. People say it had hope and I agree but it did not make things easy for the characters. It tortured characters, and some times for no other reason. And O'Brien? What the hell?

DS9 very much reminds me of Discovery and Picard. At least Discovery and Picard say "this is not the whole Federation but this crew struggling."

 

[dupersuper]

Indeed. Rewatching DS9 when my wife decided to try it was a lesson in just had dark it got. And it lingered over. People say it had hope and I agree but it did not make things easy for the characters. It tortured characters, and some times for no other reason. And O'Brien? What the hell?

DS9 very much reminds me of Discovery and Picard. At least Discovery and Picard say "this is not the whole Federation but this crew struggling."

DS9 reminds me of Picard and early Discovery in much the same way the Godfather movies or Full Metal Jacket remind me of schlocky Chuck Norris action movies. Sure, they're all violent movies, but...

 

[fireproof78]

DS9 reminds me of Picard and early Discovery in much the same way the Godfather movies or Full Metal Jacket remind me of schlocky Chuck Norris action movies. Sure, they're all violent movies, but...

I'll take your word for it.

 

[trekshark]

Picard season 2 has a reference.

Spoiler

General Picard's trophy room has Dukat's skull

 

[kkt]

Picard season 2 has a reference.

Spoiler

General Picard's trophy room has Dukat's skull

Spoiler

Okay, I haven't seen this (or any) Picard, but if anyone deserves Dukat's skull in their office it's Kira.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Spoiler

Okay, I haven't seen this (or any) Picard, but if anyone deserves Dukat's skull in their office it's Kira.

In the prime universe, most definitely…

 

[Dar70]

TNG has Picard. Voyager has Prodigy. TOS has SNW. DS9 may be the best Trek of all time (along with TNG) but other than Odo it hasn't been represented in the new shows. Sisko, Mortok, and Dukot have been mentioned on a different reality in Picard. There is a ship named after Nog. That is it. There are so many interesting stories and characters that a lot of fans would love to see. I am hoping possibly one of the shows would be called Star Trek: Sisko. I get it could be difficult to convince Avery Brooks. However, they convinced Patrick Stewart. I would much rather see a Sisko show than an Academy show. Just frustrating that the show is getting such little respect.

You forgot to mention that Morn Survived into the 32nd century and is still sitting at a bar in a space station...

 

[Paul755]

Picard season 2 has a reference.

Spoiler

General Picard's trophy room has Dukat's skull

Also,

Spoiler

he has the skull and staff of the Nagus. Plus there are references to Generals Sisko and O’Brien

 

[Jedman67]

Discovery S5 can spinoff a DS9 style show. In fact, the circumstances of S4 lead very nicely to the possibility of a deep outpost station. Nothing wrong with copying the wormhole setup, although personally I'd rather see them adapt the subspace tunnels we've already seen.
There's fertile ground and placing it in the 32nd century distances it from the Berman and SNW eras.