Why does Harry Kim never get promoted?

[MacLeod]

While I agree that B&B were a bit generic, and not wanting to "upset the applecart" n stuff..
I've also read how the music people were trying to sprinkle good music into the series when they could, and that BB did just want bland music wallpaper, but we still got good stuff like The inner light and others..
Voyager was a massive messup of a series, so much more they could have done, but the insistance on serialization and "episode reset"..
Read an article from JMS from Babylon 5, discussing back in .. what 93 or so.. about his 5 year serial.. The producers in the WB were afraid of the show being serialized because to them syndication shows out of order, well JMS went to talk to tv channels and not a 1 said they shown them out of order, even in like a repeat time.. ( Growing up Tng was aired daily at 9pm on my Fox station, and they went in order.. and when a season was finished, they would add to the rotation..)
So Voyager could have been serialized format.. but wasn't.

As for Little Wang and Beltran, if I was in charge, I'd talk to them, ask them what they would like, and try to work with them, but if they contineued to poo poo the show, they'd be shown the door.. In Space.. no one can hear your agent scream!

I think the issue was less to do with TV stations showing episodes out of order and more to do with the fact that viewers might miss an episode and be lost on what is going on. Never mend the whole "Last Time on...." at the start of the teaser which can bring an audience up to date on any relevant information they need to be aware of for the episode.

And we had these things called VCR's back in those days in which we could record programmes we wouldn't be in for or if we wanted to watch something else.

Really it was a case of TNG was very popular we need to do another show just like it. The problem with that mentality it assumes your audience isn't looking for something different to varying degrees. VOY is sometimes referred to as TNG 2.0 or TNG-lite neither of which are meant in a complementary manner. Sure there was some nods to serialisation in VOY but not as many as perhaps some of the audience would have liked. Viewers can be a fickle bunch what some like others don't like, we also can form our own preconceptions of how we expect a show to be based on what wee hear/read about whilst it is in pre-production. When it fails to live up to those notions we can become critical of the show.

In the case of VOY, criticisms include great idea but poor execution, should have been more heavily serialised etc..

Now that isn't to say those who criticise the show didn't enjoy it, they just feel it could have been more that it was. For those that enjoyed the show for what it was, great good for you. It's the same with DSC some will enjoy it for what is, others will say this character doesn't work (for me). I think they should have down X instead of Y. Rinse and repeat for the upcoming Picard show and any ST show after that. It's often the same for any long running series or franchise with multiple series.

Now I think they could have promoted Kim when they demoted Paris which could have had an impact on how those two characters interacted with each other. To me that is a missed opportunity others might not see it that way. ​

 

[at Quark's]

To paraphrase Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:

There is a theory which states that if ever anyone attempts to promote Harry Kim, the promotion (and all records of it) will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened.

 

[B. L.]

I suppose Harry Kim is dead, right?

So the new Kim has to start all over again, I guess.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Well, it seemed to me that except for our friend Tuvok*, all other promotions distributed (between the 1st and 2nd episodes) were essentially towards the Maquis and Tom Paris*) and temporarily, the time which would be necessary to reach the AQ, so, that do not count. In my last post, I forgot to mention that all promotions offered by a Captain, are supposed must be approved by the Captain's hierarchy.

*Tuvok as Chief of Security Dept and 3rd in command chain was Lt Comm as the very beginning then
demoted Lt for some unknown reasons (except an error from the production but viewers quickly thought that his "betrayal" in S2 could have explained this demotion but let me say that I don't think Tuvok's action was enough serious to deserve a demotion!) then promoted as Commander during S4.
-> In fact, he should have been Lt Comm right the beginning because of the reasons I gave above until the S4 when Janeway has promoted him Commander for the quality of the service rendered & loyalty.

And for those who will say that Torres as Chief of Engineering Dpt should have been promoted Lt Comm instead of Lt 1 grade, I'd say that as someone who left before ending her classes at Starfleet Academy to hire herself in the Maquis as a terrorist, Janeway could hardly take the plunge and give her the rank of a respectable Starfleet senior officer.

* contrarely to Torres, he was graduated from Starfleet Academy and because of his past and though his known pilot skills, she only "promoted" him Lt.

 

[MacLeod]

*Tuvok as Chief of Security Dept and 3rd in command chain was Lt Comm as the very beginning then
demoted Lt for some unknown reasons (except an error from the production but viewers quickly thought that his "betrayal" in S2 could have explained this demotion but let me say that I don't think Tuvok's action was enough serious to deserve a demotion!) then promoted as Commander during S4.
-> In fact, he should have been Lt Comm right the beginning because of the reasons I gave above until the S4 when Janeway has promoted him Commander for the quality of the service rendered & loyalty.

A rank of Lt. for Janeway's second officer might not be so bad considering her first officer Cavit was only a Lt. Cmdr.

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

It's largely symbolic. He still commanded the ship on the night watch, still ordered people around who weren't senior staff. But it's definitely odd to have an ensign commanding. Even with higher titles, though, he would've been doing all the same stuff.

 

[suarezguy]

Janeway did promote rarely, I think just Tuvok (which may have been a re-promotion after a demotion) and re-promoting Paris. Yeah, with the second not having one for Kim seems pretty much just picking on Kim, wanting the character to really be the junior one. Paris's demotion not getting reversed, he ends lower than he began (in a sense) and that nobody but Tuvok got promoted would have felt a bit more sincere.

But more in-universe, maybe Janeway just wasn't thrilled with his work (especially the interpersonal aspects) or figured that not promoting him would make him work his hardest and giving him a promotion would go to his head. And promotions might be avoided or other people would want, expect one too.

 

[suarezguy]

For seven years though? I've worked at a company for 12 years and been promoted on average every three...

I don't think it is believable that he wasn't promoted over seven years. He may not have been a stellar officer (well, that's coming to mind...) but if I went seven years without a promotion I'd recognize that I was in the wrong line of work even if nobody was kind enough to tell me so...

People in the 24th century do have longer life expectancies, it makes sense to me there would at least be more patience about careers and advancement.

Edit: Another thing to consider, would the show have been more interesting if Torres had been our main engineering character but not actually in charge of engineering?

 

[DonIago]

^Maybe, but when even the people in-universe are starting to question/joke about your lack of advancement, there's probably an issue...

 

[at Quark's]

I suppose Harry Kim is dead, right?

So the new Kim has to start all over again, I guess.

Hmmm, there's an idea...

<In Janeway's ready room>

J: So, mr. Kim, we're glad to have you back after your little ordeal with the Timbosians. Although, since you died and we had to revive you, technically you are another person, of course. Hence, your service record has been wiped clean, and today is your first day as an Ensign. Welcome to the job.
K: What? Again? But that's ridiculous! I'm the same Harry Kim that played the hobo last week during Talent Night!
J: Nope. That was an ensign, now deceased, with Starfleet service record 4352157853-F. You happen to have Starfleet service record 4352157853-G.
K: Look. I could still understand the reasoning behind you saying I was technically another person when I came over from my Voyager when it was attacked by the Vidiians and your Harry fell out through that hole in your hull into the vacuum of space. But this time, it's clear I am the same person! The only thing that happened was I suffered a little accident and the Doctor revived me in Sickbay!
J: No, dead is dead. Someone who is dead can't be alive, therefore you are a new person. I'll have mr. Tuvok explain to you how ops works and the particular rules I've set on board of this starship.
K: But... but ... this isn't fair! You have been dead, Chakotay has been dead... why weren't your service records wiped?
J: Oh, that's easy. We're higher ranking, so we aren't quite as disposable and therefore protocol can afford to wait a great deal longer before formally declaring us dead. Why do you think only a few of us even have higher ranks? I'll let you in on a little Starfleet secret, Harry. We higher-ups aren't necessarily the best in our jobs .... we were just smart enough to avoid death and the associated record wipe until we were promoted beyond Lt. Junior Grade ....you're fairly safe after that point, career-wise, even if you'd happen to die....

 

[Refuge]

Let's be honest here... Harry just didn't make the grade

 

[DonIago]

Hmmm, there's an idea...

<In Janeway's ready room>

J: So, mr. Kim, we're glad to have you back after your little ordeal with the Timbosians. Although, since you died and we had to revive you, technically you are another person, of course. Hence, your service record has been wiped clean, and today is your first day as an Ensign. Welcome to the job.
K: What? Again? But that's ridiculous! I'm the same Harry Kim that played the hobo last week during Talent Night!
J: Nope. That was an ensign, now deceased, with Starfleet service record 4352157853-F. You happen to have Starfleet service record 4352157853-G.
K: Look. I could still understand the reasoning behind you saying I was technically another person when I came over from my Voyager when it was attacked by the Vidiians and your Harry fell out through that hole in your hull into the vacuum of space. But this time, it's clear I am the same person! The only thing that happened was I suffered a little accident and the Doctor revived me in Sickbay!
J: No, dead is dead. Someone who is dead can't be alive, therefore you are a new person. I'll have mr. Tuvok explain to you how ops works and the particular rules I've set on board of this starship.
K: But... but ... this isn't fair! You have been dead, Chakotay has been dead... why weren't your service records wiped?
J: Oh, that's easy. We're higher ranking, so we aren't quite as disposable and therefore protocol can afford to wait a great deal longer before formally declaring us dead. Why do you think only a few of us even have higher ranks? I'll let you in on a little Starfleet secret, Harry. We higher-ups aren't necessarily the best in our jobs .... we were just smart enough to avoid death and the associated record wipe until we were promoted beyond Lt. Junior Grade ....you're fairly safe after that point, career-wise, even if you'd happen to die....

Almost, but not quite as convoluted as the legal argument that Professor Farnsworth couldn't be convicted of a crime when Cubert Farnsworth had been exonerated of the same crime since, as the latter was the clone of the former, it would constitute double jeopardy. Thank you for that delightful legal exercise, Futurama!

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Kim is basically Ltjg Picard. Except an Ensign. He probably became ltjg at age 50.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

In fact, when Wang visited Braga to ask him why he was still an Enseign after several season spent, the latter would not have answered: "hey there must be an Enseign" but instead "All right kid, you choose between keeping Enseign Harry Kim alive as long as Voyager continues or a dead Lt Harry Kim very quickly...or at best, a passive HK on screen for the remaining time. You can not have both (meaning: a Lt Harry Kim alive and in action until the end of the series)".
= be content to still have a contract for which we pay you the big bucks! ok, it is maybe a bit violent speech but at least, it is quite clear

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

He was supposed to be the new Locutus. When the Borg queen said, "See you soon, Harry," it was one of the most random and awkward lines ever. But he'd still be Ensign Locutus.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

= be content to still have a contract for which we pay you the big bucks! ok, it is maybe a bit violent speech but at least, it is quite clear

Which circles back to the question I asked on the previous page: why did the producers take an adversarial approach to the talent after Michael Piller left?

 

[at Quark's]

He was supposed to be the new Locutus. When the Borg queen said, "See you soon, Harry," it was one of the most random and awkward lines ever. But he'd still be Ensign Locutus.

Even if Mirror Universe's Evil Harry Kim managed to re-establish the Terran Empire, he'd still go down into history as "the Ensign-Emperor"

 

[suarezguy]

Why was it that once Piller left, the message was "screw the actors?" Wang and Beltran weren't asking for anything extraordinary, just not to be wallpaper for the show.

I don't think they were deliberately antagonistic, Braga just admitted that he and the other writers couldn't think of much interesting to do with Chakotay (hard to have the First Officer get much material when the captain would more naturally be focused on as the protagonist and in command) and, though I don't think it wasn't admitted, the writers also saw Harry as a pretty stock character who didn't need a lot of development and might become less interesting if he did change.

If they were on TNG or DS9, the writers would have found little things to show Chakotay and Kim growing and evolving.

Not necessarily, DS9 developed some of its characters well but, aside from Siddig disliking the genetic-enhancement twist for Bashir, O'Brien and Jake didn't change much in the last two or three years, Quark not a lot the last two years.

 

[DonIago]

(laughs at the idea of Kim becoming less interesting)

But seriously, VOY would have benefited from a willingness to acknowledge that Janeway wasn't foolproof and that Chakotay may actually be right once in awhile. I guess that might have risked sending a "man right, woman wrong!!!" message to the people looking for that sort of thing, but it shouldn't be so blasphemous to acknowledge that everyone makes mistakes.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I don't think they were deliberately antagonistic, Braga just admitted that he and the other writers couldn't think of much interesting to do with Chakotay (hard to have the First Officer get much material when the captain would more naturally be focused on as the protagonist and in command) and, though I don't think it wasn't admitted, the writers also saw Harry as a pretty stock character who didn't need a lot of development and might become less interesting if he did change.

IIRC, Beltran and Kim were, in many cases, making modest requests: give me a little scene here or there that allows me to practice my acting chops; give my character some symbolic change to show that he is not stagnant. The excuses they were given were just impolite, evasive refusals. This was not the pattern of relationships that Piller had with actors. However, it shows that Braga was largely indifferent to them, seeing them only as a vehicle for his storytelling.

Not necessarily, DS9 developed some of its characters well but, aside from Siddig disliking the genetic-enhancement twist for Bashir, O'Brien and Jake didn't change much in the last two or three years, Quark not a lot the last two years.

O'Brien developed a friendship with the station's doctor and earned the ear of the CO. He experienced despair that almost led him to hurt his family. He struggled with feelings of infidelity and jealousy. He had to choose between family and career.

Jake grew up. He developed a friendship with a boy from an antagonistic race. He was confronted with the religious beliefs of an alien people. He learned to write and developed a career. He experienced war, and he challenged oppression, both directly as a reporter and as a member of a resistance group.

Quark pushed aside his narrow pursuit of money. He stood up to other cultures that put down the Ferengi way of life. He learned that he could have friends outside of his own kind. He became a fully fledged pater familias, learning not only to tolerate the autonomy of his mother, brother and nephew, but to show them love.

Did they develop? Perhaps not as much as others. However, the actors were presented with real challenges every season that went down to the depths of the characters they played. Even Cirroc Lofton, who didn't really get a great story in the last season, was given the final, poetic scene of the series, giving him the opportunity to show the depth of the relationship Jake had with his father.