Why does Harry Kim never get promoted?

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Which circles back to the question I asked on the previous page: why did the producers take an adversarial approach to the talent after Michael Piller left?

Huh, maybe post-Piller's producers weren't interested by actors acting at all, except of course some for whom it was natural (Mulgrewn Picardo and Ryan), ...
preferring stories, arcs to everything else, including talking about characters background = past.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Huh, maybe post-Piller's producers weren't interested by actors acting at all, except of course some for whom it was natural (Mulgrewn Picardo and Ryan), ...
preferring stories, arcs to everything else, including talking about characters background = past.

Given how character driven The Orville is, I can confidently state that Braga saw the error of his ways.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

Given how character driven The Orville is, I can confidently state that Braga saw the error of his ways.

Hey, better late than never, right?!

 

[EternalEnsign]

Was there any type of subconscious bias against Harry Kim by Captain Janeway? On the surface, everything is ok.. but, is Harry Kim advancing up one rank or two ranks, even if its just a "field" promotion, a sign of her getting old? If she can make Chakotay (ex-Marquis) as a Commander, Torres (ex-Marquis) as Chief Engineer, and Tom Paris (ex-prisoner who became a Lieutenant, demoted, and restore to his former rank) as a Lieutenant, and Tuvok (who once critized her command abilities in front of several Admirals) as a Lieutenant Commander, then why not Harry Kim? Harry Kim has served on VOYAGER as a Starfleet Officer since Day one. Nobody's perfect, but there should be some sort of waiver because of their unique circumstances. If there is a limit on the number of officers or percentage on how many officers are alloted to hold a particular rank on the ship, there should be room for wiggle. Enterprise-A had three Captains: CAPTAIN KIRK, CAPTAIN SPOCK, and CAPTAIN SCOTT. They all had the same rank, but there was at least a rule of seniority on the ranks. Money is not used in the future, so he wouldn't get a pay raise. I think Janeway could have done at least an a (temporary) Lieutenant, junior grade, by Season 5. I'm hoping that in the Picard Series, that Harry would have at least made it to the rank of Captain...

Or was there some sort of personal bias against Garrett Wang by the producers/writers?

 

[Akiraprise]

I think it ended up being kind of a behind the scenes joke. They even mentioned it on screen when Paris got promoted back to Lt after being demoted. By all rights Harry should have been promoted at some point. He was a senior bridge officer and fairly competent.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Operations officer is an Ensign.

Some one of a higher rank is wasting their time, and some one of a lower rank is above their depth, and under qualified.

If Kim wanted a promotion, he had to give up the Operations gig, but that would be a demotion in status, since if he is no longer a section head, Harry is no longer invited to the big table for the meetings with the Captain.

 

[DonIago]

Having an ensign manning Ops might have worked if they'd explained that he was transferred to the ship in a hurry, or if the section head was killed when Voyager was flung into the DQ.

Either way though, keeping him an ensign, and then even making fun of it in-show, was in my opinion a misstep. If the writers themselves don't take Harry seriously as a character, why should anyone else?

 

[Tenacity]

Enterprise-A had three Captains: CAPTAIN KIRK, CAPTAIN SPOCK, and CAPTAIN SCOTT. They all had the same rank

I thought Scott retained the rank of commander and that "captain of engineering" was a job title.

 

[valkyrie013]

Nope.. Got promoted to captain in ST3 on his transfer to the excelsior .. And kept that rank from then on.. So yep.. 3 captains on the Ent-A

 

[Farscape One]

In the pilot, Kim was mentioned as being Operations Officer. So it's not him taking over from the death of a higher ranked person.

Data was the Operations Officer on the Enterprise, and he was a Lt. Commander. I don't think a higher rank for that position is a waste of time, despite Voyager being a much smaller ship. Ops is still Ops, no matter the size of the ship.

If we were to go with rank oddities on VOYAGER, the Chief Engineer should have been a full Lt., like Carey is shown to be. He was the Assistant Chief in the pilot, and likely stayed as that until his death. Torres was a Lt. junior grade. She should have been equal to Carey in terms of rank. Or at least have Carey be a junior Lt. instead of a full one.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Data was the Operations Officer on the Enterprise, and he was a Lt. Commander. I don't think a higher rank for that position is a waste of time, despite Voyager being a much smaller ship. Ops is still Ops, no matter the size of the ship.

Operations is a department.

It's more about HR than scanning for lifeforms.

Kim has to organize for some one to always be sitting in that seat, 24/7, and then write reports on how well they are doing their job, and what actually happened in each shift, which he has to send to Chakotay, and cc to Tuvok, every damn day.

Kim is in charge of Ten enlisted crewmen at any one time, and becuase he can't give orders to any one of the same rank or a higher rank, his staff can't be Officers.

Data on the other hand is in charge of probably more than ten Lieutenants at any one time, and has to be a lieutenant commander to give orders to lieutenants.

It's also about the missions that the ship is supposed to go on. Picard wants experienced people that can handle anything, because he is sent into the shit, or he waits on the edge of Federation Space for the shit to come to him.

Janeway is a murderer.

She picked a disposable crew that didn't mind going into the badlands and dropping two tricolbolt devices on a commune of hippies, who would not need a thousand hours of therapy to cope with all the blood on their hands. Actually if Kim was the Editor of the Academy paper, and he covered the rise of the Maquis, which he was and did... Was his coverage more like Inforwars than CNN, because Janeway picked him out of the fresh crop to murder a few thousand Maquis without a single blemish of regret.

Operations fire the weapons, right?

 

[Farscape One]

Operations is more than just HR. In "Lower Decks", Sito was telling Worf about some of the different challenges of the Ops position... adjusting various sensors, finding lost pets, allocating resources for different purposes, etc.

Ops sounds more like a Warehouse Manager keeping everything working and on time than some HR pencil pusher.

And technically, Kim CAN give orders to ranks above him. He did it with Lt. Baxter in "TWISTED", when he told him to report to his station. Baxter even said, "Yes, sir." Other dialogue, like in "DISPLACED" when Tom orders Torres on her feet, indicates a Bridge Officer has seniority, not to mention actually being a Lt. longer than another Lt. of the same rank.

Plus, Janeway later had him in command of the night shift, and we saw at least one other Ensign, the helmswoman, taking his orders.

On DS9, O'Brien isn't even an officer, but a LOT of the people under him were. Ensign Munez and Ensign Nog for example.

In other words, position seems to take precedence over rank. For the most part, the position is a high enough rank that it doesn't matter. But there are still plenty of examples where position overrules.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You're mixing up an officer at Operations, with the Operations Officer.

One is a section head, and the other is a dude sitting in a chair for 6 hours.

Harry and Data are both both.

Sito, I doubt would have been a section head, on the Enterprise, even if the script said so becuase the writers are dumb-asses. Sito was not going to live at operations for months because she is the only officer allowed to work at the operations position.

How green was she?

Any Starfleet officer can do every job on the entire starship.

Although an officers job is usually to tell an enlisted crewman to do their job.

 

[Farscape One]

I'm not mixing it up because Data and Kim ARE the Operations Officers of their ships.

Sito was just manning the station, but I used her as an example to illustrate that Ops is more than just an HR pencil pusher.

 

[Tenacity]

Part of Data's job (my understanding) is the allocation of internal resources, divert life support to shields, re-route thruster, or such. Dispite the similarities in job titles, Kim doesn't seem to do that.

They both monitor sensors.

Kim often is tasked with handling communications, Data fairly rarely.

Nope.. Got promoted to captain in ST3

Did his insignia change?

 

[137th Gebirg]

Yep.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'm not mixing it up because Data and Kim ARE the Operations Officers of their ships.

Sito was just manning the station, but I used her as an example to illustrate that Ops is more than just an HR pencil pusher.

You sound like you're fighting, but you're agreeing with me.

Every section head, is managing a few dozen staff at any one time, which is HR. If you are a section head, which some how includes Neelix... Does he have a staff to help keep Morale up? It sounds stupid, but it's fairly clear Neelix would be handing out promotions like a lolly scramble if anyone wanted to be permanently assigned to Morale. It's an easy way to get a bigger bedroom.

 

[Anwar]

Harry died, and they brought on his clone twin from another ship. Obviously he was never promoted due to that!

 

[fireproof78]

And technically, Kim CAN give orders to ranks above him. He did it with Lt. Baxter in "TWISTED", when he told him to report to his station. Baxter even said, "Yes, sir." Other dialogue, like in "DISPLACED" when Tom orders Torres on her feet, indicates a Bridge Officer has seniority, not to mention actually being a Lt. longer than another Lt. of the same rank.

Sadly, that was just an example of very poor writing, given that Harry Kim (at that point) was only a recent graduate from the Academy and a full lieutenant has to ask him what to do at red alert.

Either way though, keeping him an ensign, and then even making fun of it in-show, was in my opinion a misstep. If the writers themselves don't take Harry seriously as a character, why should anyone else?

Exactly. Especially since it Tom Paris was able to be promoted after being in prison.

 

[Akiraprise]

Exactly. Especially since it Tom Paris was able to be promoted after being in prison.

And then demoted to ensign for misbehavior and then re-promoted to Lieutenant. Poor Harry sure got screwed. Although there wasn't much movement rank wise in the 7 years we watched. Tuvok and Paris, I think, were the only promotions we saw.