Presumbaly it's happening in many concurrent alternate timelinesAt this point this thread might be happening in an alternate timeline.
Which Star Trek Productions are in the Same Alternate Universes as Others?
- Thread starter MAGolding
- Start date
Quant-ummm? Theory.
For 3.2 seconds, I saw perfection. When I opened this thread, I felt a curious sensation. As I was reading it, it seemed to be reading me. The Borg have assimilated many threads with posts to explain such moments of clarity. I've always dismissed them as trivial. Perhaps I was wrong.
How Many Episodes of TOS are TNG, DS9, and VOY Sequels to?
As I have said, it is my theory that the makers of many episodic television shows more or less imagined that each episode was something that it was possible that the protagonists might experience, instead of imagining that every episode happened to the protagonists one after another as parts of one longer and more complex story.
According to the science fictional concept of alternate universes, every real person would have a multitude of possible futures in different alternate universes branching off every second of their life. So there could be, and probably are, science fiction stories where someone explores tens, hundreds, and thousands of their different possible alternate futures.
Thus it seems natural for science fiction fans to imagine that almost every episode of a long running episodic television series happens in an alternate universe of its own, separate from the alternate universes of other episodes. And that way they can avoid the many problems with imagining that the protagonists have tens or hundreds of exciting adventures one after another in the same timeline.
So I believe that Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star trek: Deep Space Nine, and Star Trek: Voyager are sequels to very few episodes of Star Trek: The Original Series, or Star Trek: The Animated Series, or TOS movies.
But since every episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star trek: Deep Space Nine, and Star Trek: Voyager is probably a sequel to "Encounter at Farpoint", the pilot episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, every episode of those three shows is probably a sequel to the same set of TOS and TAS episodes and movies. So I will start listing the episodes that the three shows seem to be sequels of.
1) TNG "The Naked Now" seems to be a sequel to TOS "The Naked Time" (or to similar events in an alternate universe very close to that have "The Naked Time"):
And:
CRUSHER: I made this a broader based remedy. I hope. But it's still close to the formula from the old Enterprise records.
PICARD: Decades ago, light years away,
CRUSHER: But almost exactly the same conditions as here.
2) TNG episode "Sarek" is probably a sequel to the TOS episode "Journey to Babel" (or to an alternate universe with similar events):
3) TNG episode "Unification Part 1" is probably a sequel to the TNG episode "Sarek" and the TOS episode "Journey to Babel":
The Khitomer Conference is mentioned by Sarek and Picard:
PICARD: Who is Pardek?
SAREK: He is a Romulan Senator. Spock has maintained a relationship with him over the years. I don't know how they met. At the Khitomer Conference, I'd imagine.
PICARD: Pardek represented Romulus?
SAREK: Yes, I'm sure he did. In fact, I recall Spock coming to me with optimism about a continuing dialogue with the Romulans. I told him it was illogical to maintain such an expectation. Spock was always so impressionable. This Romulan, Pardek, had no support at home. Of course, in the end I was proven correct. I gave Spock the benefit of experience, of logic. He never listened. Never listened.
And Sarek also says:
And that seems to be a reference to the TAS episode "Yesteryear". So "Yesteryear" seems to be the third TOS production that the TNG era productions are sequels to.
4) "Unification Part 2" is the continuation and sequel of "Unification Part 1".
Spock is clearly referring to events identical or very similar to those in Star Trek VI:The Undiscovered Country, thus making Star Trek VI:The Undiscovered Country the fourth TOS era production that TNG era productions are sequels to.
5), 6), 7) What TOS era productions was Star Trek VI:The Undiscovered Country a sequel to?
Kirk says:
Which is replayed at his trial:
This is probably a reference to the death of David Marcus in Star trek III: The Search for Spock, which is a sequel to Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, which is a sequel to the TOS episode "Space Seed". "Unification Part 2" and thus all TNG era productions are sequels to 4) Star Trek VI:The Undiscovered Country, 5), Star trek III: The Search for Spock 6) Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, and 7) "Space Seed".
It is uncertain whether 4) Star Trek VI:The Undiscovered Country is a sequel to Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home and/or to Star Trek V: The Final Frontier. But those two movies are clearly sequels to 5) Star trek III: The Search for Spock, 6) Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, and 7) "Space Seed". So if either Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home or Star Trek V: The Final Frontier. is a sequel to any TOS era production, Star trek II: The Wrath of Khan, and thus 4) Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country must also be a sequel to that TOS era production.
8) There is a possibility that Star Trek V: The Final Frontier is a sequel to the TOS episode "Operation: Annihilate!":
All fans familiar with TOS naturally expect at first that Kirk is talking about his brother George Samuel Kirk, which is vital to the effect it has on them. And it could be claimed that Kirk's line only works for Spock if Star Trek V: The Final Frontier is a sequel to "Operation: Annihilate!". So there is a possibility that all TNG era productions are sequels to "Operation: Annihilate!".
9), 10) In "Relics" Mr. Scott says:
So Relics", and thus all TNG era productions, should be sequels to the TOS episodes "Elaan of Troyius" and "Wolf in the Fold".
So far all TNG productions seem to be sequels to:
1) TOS "The Naked Time"
2) TOS "Journey to Babel"
3) TAS episode "Yesteryear"
4) Movie Star Trek VI:The Undiscovered Country
5) Movie Star trek III: The Search for Spock
6) Movie Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
7) TOS "Space Seed"
8) TOS episode "Operation: Annihilate!"
9) TOS "Elaan of Troyius"
10) TOS "Wolf in the Fold"
"Operation: Annihilate!" seems to be the least certain.
To be continued.
As I have said, it is my theory that the makers of many episodic television shows more or less imagined that each episode was something that it was possible that the protagonists might experience, instead of imagining that every episode happened to the protagonists one after another as parts of one longer and more complex story.
According to the science fictional concept of alternate universes, every real person would have a multitude of possible futures in different alternate universes branching off every second of their life. So there could be, and probably are, science fiction stories where someone explores tens, hundreds, and thousands of their different possible alternate futures.
Thus it seems natural for science fiction fans to imagine that almost every episode of a long running episodic television series happens in an alternate universe of its own, separate from the alternate universes of other episodes. And that way they can avoid the many problems with imagining that the protagonists have tens or hundreds of exciting adventures one after another in the same timeline.
So I believe that Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star trek: Deep Space Nine, and Star Trek: Voyager are sequels to very few episodes of Star Trek: The Original Series, or Star Trek: The Animated Series, or TOS movies.
But since every episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star trek: Deep Space Nine, and Star Trek: Voyager is probably a sequel to "Encounter at Farpoint", the pilot episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, every episode of those three shows is probably a sequel to the same set of TOS and TAS episodes and movies. So I will start listing the episodes that the three shows seem to be sequels of.
1) TNG "The Naked Now" seems to be a sequel to TOS "The Naked Time" (or to similar events in an alternate universe very close to that have "The Naked Time"):
And:
CRUSHER: I made this a broader based remedy. I hope. But it's still close to the formula from the old Enterprise records.
PICARD: Decades ago, light years away,
CRUSHER: But almost exactly the same conditions as here.
2) TNG episode "Sarek" is probably a sequel to the TOS episode "Journey to Babel" (or to an alternate universe with similar events):
3) TNG episode "Unification Part 1" is probably a sequel to the TNG episode "Sarek" and the TOS episode "Journey to Babel":
The Khitomer Conference is mentioned by Sarek and Picard:
PICARD: Who is Pardek?
SAREK: He is a Romulan Senator. Spock has maintained a relationship with him over the years. I don't know how they met. At the Khitomer Conference, I'd imagine.
PICARD: Pardek represented Romulus?
SAREK: Yes, I'm sure he did. In fact, I recall Spock coming to me with optimism about a continuing dialogue with the Romulans. I told him it was illogical to maintain such an expectation. Spock was always so impressionable. This Romulan, Pardek, had no support at home. Of course, in the end I was proven correct. I gave Spock the benefit of experience, of logic. He never listened. Never listened.
And Sarek also says:
And that seems to be a reference to the TAS episode "Yesteryear". So "Yesteryear" seems to be the third TOS production that the TNG era productions are sequels to.
4) "Unification Part 2" is the continuation and sequel of "Unification Part 1".
Spock is clearly referring to events identical or very similar to those in Star Trek VI:The Undiscovered Country, thus making Star Trek VI:The Undiscovered Country the fourth TOS era production that TNG era productions are sequels to.
5), 6), 7) What TOS era productions was Star Trek VI:The Undiscovered Country a sequel to?
Kirk says:
Which is replayed at his trial:
This is probably a reference to the death of David Marcus in Star trek III: The Search for Spock, which is a sequel to Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, which is a sequel to the TOS episode "Space Seed". "Unification Part 2" and thus all TNG era productions are sequels to 4) Star Trek VI:The Undiscovered Country, 5), Star trek III: The Search for Spock 6) Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, and 7) "Space Seed".
It is uncertain whether 4) Star Trek VI:The Undiscovered Country is a sequel to Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home and/or to Star Trek V: The Final Frontier. But those two movies are clearly sequels to 5) Star trek III: The Search for Spock, 6) Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, and 7) "Space Seed". So if either Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home or Star Trek V: The Final Frontier. is a sequel to any TOS era production, Star trek II: The Wrath of Khan, and thus 4) Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country must also be a sequel to that TOS era production.
8) There is a possibility that Star Trek V: The Final Frontier is a sequel to the TOS episode "Operation: Annihilate!":
All fans familiar with TOS naturally expect at first that Kirk is talking about his brother George Samuel Kirk, which is vital to the effect it has on them. And it could be claimed that Kirk's line only works for Spock if Star Trek V: The Final Frontier is a sequel to "Operation: Annihilate!". So there is a possibility that all TNG era productions are sequels to "Operation: Annihilate!".
9), 10) In "Relics" Mr. Scott says:
So Relics", and thus all TNG era productions, should be sequels to the TOS episodes "Elaan of Troyius" and "Wolf in the Fold".
So far all TNG productions seem to be sequels to:
1) TOS "The Naked Time"
2) TOS "Journey to Babel"
3) TAS episode "Yesteryear"
4) Movie Star Trek VI:The Undiscovered Country
5) Movie Star trek III: The Search for Spock
6) Movie Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
7) TOS "Space Seed"
8) TOS episode "Operation: Annihilate!"
9) TOS "Elaan of Troyius"
10) TOS "Wolf in the Fold"
"Operation: Annihilate!" seems to be the least certain.
To be continued.
I can't tell you what builds off of what, I just have four main timelines:
1. TOS/TAS/TMP
2. Star Trek II-VI, TNG, DS9, VOY, TNG films
3. The Abramsverse
4. Enterprise and Discovery, spun off of the events of First Contact.
Broad strokes are mostly the same, details are different.
1. TOS/TAS/TMP
2. Star Trek II-VI, TNG, DS9, VOY, TNG films
3. The Abramsverse
4. Enterprise and Discovery, spun off of the events of First Contact.
Broad strokes are mostly the same, details are different.
I need Cliff Notes. I can't process so much all at once.
I understand Robert Mueller is looking for something to do.
Instead of Continuities, let's just separate Star Trek by who's in charge.
Roddenberry --> TOS, TAS, TMP, and TNG Seasons 1-2
Bennett/Meyer --> TWOK-TUC
Berman --> TNG Season 3 to ENT
Abrams --> Kelvin Films
Kurtzman --> Disco, Picard, etc.
Simple.
Roddenberry --> TOS, TAS, TMP, and TNG Seasons 1-2
Bennett/Meyer --> TWOK-TUC
Berman --> TNG Season 3 to ENT
Abrams --> Kelvin Films
Kurtzman --> Disco, Picard, etc.
Simple.
I just refer to Trek from 1981 through 1986 as the Harve Bennett Era and it overlaps with Roddenberry and Berman in 1988 and 1989 with TFF.
That's why I combined the two. Between the two of them, you have all five films covered.
TWOK --> Bennett, Meyer
TSFS --> Bennett
TVH --> Bennett, Meyer
TFF --> Bennett
TUC --> Meyer
I always have a reason behind what I do.
For those who want to know why I put the beginning of Berman Trek at where I do: It's because the start of the third season is when he was officially promoted to Executive Producer.
My main point is: each person in charge has a different idea of what Star Trek should be and where it should go. So everything produced under the same regime will naturally fit together better with each other than with something made by another regime. So it might turn out that, for example, there will be fans of the Berman Series who don't like any of the Kurtzman Series. Or they don't like how Alex Kurtzman approached TOS versus how Rick Berman did. Or they'll compare Alex Kurtzman's update of the TOS Era to JJ Abrams' update.
The person in charge, not the "timeline" it's in, is what really makes the difference. As soon as the person up top changes, so does the overall vision. And that's when you get re-vision. Because whoever's in charge will want to put their own stamp on it, no matter how faithful to the source material they try to be. That's just human nature.
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In the thread "Is it possible to whittle down all the Canon issues to 3X Time LInes?" Prax wrote in post # 129 on page 7::
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/is-...on-issues-down-to-3x-time-lines.301790/page-7
And I responded in post # 143 on page 8:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/is-...on-issues-down-to-3x-time-lines.301790/page-8
There are dozens of Star Trek productions which seem to mention events in other productions.
For example, in "Turnabout Intruder" Captain Kirk, in the body of Janice Lester, tries to convince Spock of that highly unusual situation:
So it is natural to deduce that "Turnabout Intruder" is a sequel to "The Tholian Web" and "The Empath".
But there is no proof that "Turnabout Intruder" is a sequel to "The Tholian Web" and "The Empath", because Captain Kirk in the body of Jancie Lester didn't give complete summaries of everything which happened in "The Tholian Web" and "The Empath" down to the smallest detail known to the audience. The brief words of Kirk make it possible that "Turnabout Intruder" is a sequel to events similar to, but not exactly the same, as those two episodes.
There seem to be four possible alignments of episodes:
1) "Turnabout Intruder" is a sequel to events exactly like those in "The Tholian Web" and "The Empath". Thus it is a sequel to both those episodes.
2) "Turnabout Intruder" is a sequel to events exactly like those in "The Tholian Web" and to events similar to, but a little different from, "The Empath". Thus it is a sequel to "The Tholian Web" but not to "The Empath", but instead is a sequel to events in an alternate universe very similar to that of "The Empath".
3) "Turnabout Intruder" is a sequel to events exactly like those in "The Empath" and to events similar to, but a little different from, "The Tholian Web". Thus it is a sequel to "The Empath" but not to "The Tholian Web", but instead is a sequel to events in an alternate universe very similar to that of "The Tholian Web".
4) "Turnabout Intruder" is a sequel to events similar to, but not exactly like those in "The Tholian Web" and "The Empath". Thus it is not a sequel to either "The Tholian Web" or "The Empath". Instead it is an alternate universe similar to, but slightly different from, the alternate universe(s) of "The Tholian Web" and "The Empath".
In the fourth case, there are two further possibilities, 4A and 4B, whether "The Tholian Web" and "The Empath" happen one after the other in the same alternate universe or in two different but similar alternate universes.
And there is no way to tell, with the slight amount of evidence given, which of those possibilities is the correct relationship of the three episodes.
And the same goes for every Star Trek production in which someone briefly mentions events in a previous Star Trek production. Anything except for a complete replay of the earlier Star Trek production leaves it uncertain whether the later episode is a sequel to the previous episode and thus in the same alternate universe or a sequel to events rather similar to those in the episode, and thus is in a similar but alternate universe.
So when I asked for examples of episodes that were sequels to other episodes, I was really asking for examples of episodes that were either sequels to other episodes happening in the same alternate universe, or else sequels to events similar to, but different from, previous productions, and thus happening in slightly different alternate universes.
Because there is no good way to tell those two categories apart, they can be lumped together in a category of episodes possibly in the same alternate universe and with some evidence that they might be in the same alternate universe.
Other Star Trek productions with no indications that they are in the same alternate universes as other episodes are the majority and the other category. Any Star Trek production in that category might possibly be a sequel to some other episodes but there is no way to tell. And due to the statistical improbability of a bunch of episodes happening within a few years, I think that it is best to assume that each of hundreds of such Star Trek productions happens in an alternate universe of its own.
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/is-...on-issues-down-to-3x-time-lines.301790/page-7
And I responded in post # 143 on page 8:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/is-...on-issues-down-to-3x-time-lines.301790/page-8
There are dozens of Star Trek productions which seem to mention events in other productions.
For example, in "Turnabout Intruder" Captain Kirk, in the body of Janice Lester, tries to convince Spock of that highly unusual situation:
So it is natural to deduce that "Turnabout Intruder" is a sequel to "The Tholian Web" and "The Empath".
But there is no proof that "Turnabout Intruder" is a sequel to "The Tholian Web" and "The Empath", because Captain Kirk in the body of Jancie Lester didn't give complete summaries of everything which happened in "The Tholian Web" and "The Empath" down to the smallest detail known to the audience. The brief words of Kirk make it possible that "Turnabout Intruder" is a sequel to events similar to, but not exactly the same, as those two episodes.
There seem to be four possible alignments of episodes:
1) "Turnabout Intruder" is a sequel to events exactly like those in "The Tholian Web" and "The Empath". Thus it is a sequel to both those episodes.
2) "Turnabout Intruder" is a sequel to events exactly like those in "The Tholian Web" and to events similar to, but a little different from, "The Empath". Thus it is a sequel to "The Tholian Web" but not to "The Empath", but instead is a sequel to events in an alternate universe very similar to that of "The Empath".
3) "Turnabout Intruder" is a sequel to events exactly like those in "The Empath" and to events similar to, but a little different from, "The Tholian Web". Thus it is a sequel to "The Empath" but not to "The Tholian Web", but instead is a sequel to events in an alternate universe very similar to that of "The Tholian Web".
4) "Turnabout Intruder" is a sequel to events similar to, but not exactly like those in "The Tholian Web" and "The Empath". Thus it is not a sequel to either "The Tholian Web" or "The Empath". Instead it is an alternate universe similar to, but slightly different from, the alternate universe(s) of "The Tholian Web" and "The Empath".
In the fourth case, there are two further possibilities, 4A and 4B, whether "The Tholian Web" and "The Empath" happen one after the other in the same alternate universe or in two different but similar alternate universes.
And there is no way to tell, with the slight amount of evidence given, which of those possibilities is the correct relationship of the three episodes.
And the same goes for every Star Trek production in which someone briefly mentions events in a previous Star Trek production. Anything except for a complete replay of the earlier Star Trek production leaves it uncertain whether the later episode is a sequel to the previous episode and thus in the same alternate universe or a sequel to events rather similar to those in the episode, and thus is in a similar but alternate universe.
So when I asked for examples of episodes that were sequels to other episodes, I was really asking for examples of episodes that were either sequels to other episodes happening in the same alternate universe, or else sequels to events similar to, but different from, previous productions, and thus happening in slightly different alternate universes.
Because there is no good way to tell those two categories apart, they can be lumped together in a category of episodes possibly in the same alternate universe and with some evidence that they might be in the same alternate universe.
Other Star Trek productions with no indications that they are in the same alternate universes as other episodes are the majority and the other category. Any Star Trek production in that category might possibly be a sequel to some other episodes but there is no way to tell. And due to the statistical improbability of a bunch of episodes happening within a few years, I think that it is best to assume that each of hundreds of such Star Trek productions happens in an alternate universe of its own.
I always considered season 1 and 2 and maybe even (at least parts of) season 3 of TNG to be set in a different timeline than later 24th century trek.
Made a theory about it in the TNG forum a while ago:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/the...-isnt-the-same-as-before-that-episode.300964/
Made a theory about it in the TNG forum a while ago:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/the...-isnt-the-same-as-before-that-episode.300964/
That's interesting to note. Janice's vague mention of logged episodes could refer to unseen adventures or alternate universe version of events (interestingly, all three episodes are third season/Fred Freiberger Trek), and the same to other episodic mention of previous adventures.
But what about when we "see" the previous episode in question? I'm talking about The Menagerie, which is a wraparound for The Cage, but also Shades of Gray (showing clips from TNG Seasons 1 and 2), and if you disregard those as illusionary or tricks of a failing mind, how about the video logs of previous movies seen in Star Trek III and IV or the third person clips seen in What You Leave Behind?
If The Menagerie (a two parter, btw...) is an accurate sequel to The Cage, then what about the other sequel to The Cage (If Memory Serves...)? If "If Memory Serves..." is truly an in-universe sequel to "The Cage", disregarding the issues many have with that placement, then wouldn't all of Discovery Season 1 and 2 (as almost one singular serial storyline) be necessarily in the same universe? A potential "The Cage-The Menagerie-Star Trek: Discovery" alternate universe.
Arguing otherwise, which is valid, could extrapolate into saying that even two parters could be two universes. Or maybe every act, every scene, every cut is a different alternate, but similar universe. There are certainly enough continuity mistakes (as in different hair parting, or eyeline change, or a boom mic in the background) to justify this idea.
That line in Turnabout was meant to tell us that we weren't just seeing a generic space adventure with defined characters, but a continuation of a series of adventures that the characters have perceived. TNG took it a step further, but showcasing character evolution over the course of many years. DS9 entered the idea of serialized, continuing plot points and stories over multiple seasons, in addition to the episodic stuff. Discovery has mostly removed the episodes for one long story.
Star Trek doesn't make sense on the surface as a real universe, for many reasons. They're all actors, standing on marks, in perfect position for a camera shot. They rarely stumble over words. Their thoughts are distinct and with motive. We see cardboard in the background, boom mics abound, Picard forgot his pips a time or two, someone left a coffee cup on the table, Bill Gocke is seen in the mirror. We can't take things literally, as that way lies madness.
These are all representation of events that we have to imagine, just like any good book or oral story. Some of the details are just foggy and need reinterpretation when presented with new or conflicting data.
Just call it pro-retcon, since behind these multi-timeline theories tends to be a desire to stick to the most literal interpretation of a line of dialogue or another element, usually matching the original intent at a particular point in franchise history.
A fan: "But the Eugenics Wars didn't happen in real life, so that means we can't be in the same timeline as Star Trek!"
Me: [*Facepalm*]
Me: [*Facepalm*]
? That part is true; we can’t be unless the official timelines are updated not to say they occurred between 1992 and 1996. So far they’ve merely been swept under the carpet, not merged with WWIII or something.
That was kind of my point, albeit one I didn't elaborate upon. The fans who want them retconned to not happen in the 1990s because our timeline isn't the same as Star Trek's. "They didn't happen in real life so I can't buy that they happened in Trek in the 1990s!" Well, I've got news for those fans: we're going to have to eventually retcon almost everything if that's the case since our real world history will not line up with Trek's.
Star Trek is a fictional version of our own history and whether or not it lines up with real world events is largely irrelevant. That's why it's called science fiction.
Star Trek is a fictional version of our own history and whether or not it lines up with real world events is largely irrelevant. That's why it's called science fiction.
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