Which Star Trek Productions are in the Same Alternate Universes as Others?

[cooleddie74]

Jim Beam Me Up, Scotty.

 

[arch101]

The Kelvinverse and Discovery have done this, haven't they? Now people actually distrust the continuity of individual episodes.

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

If people buy into alternate universes for every perceived discrepancy, ST writers just got one of the biggest passes in history. It’s a show, and it’s fallible.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I don't see why we'd need to stop at the episode level. Why not just have each and every scene be in its own universe?

Why is Kirk's insignia not there in "The Enemy Within" until it suddenly is? Alternate universes.

Why is Kirk's insignia suddenly on his right side in "The Way to Eden" and then back again on his left just as suddenly? Alternate universes.

Why doesn't "The Alternative Factor" make any sense? You guessed it: alternate universes.

 

[cooleddie74]

KILL!!! KILL!!! KILL!!! KILL!!! KILL!!!!

 

[Mysterion]

My keys weren't where I thought I left them last night... ALTERNATE UNIVERSE!!!!

 

[MAGolding]

Here is a discussion of the episodes that "Shades of Gray" was a sequel to.

"Shades of Gray" is episode number 47 in broadcast order, being broadcast on July 17, 1989; number 48 in stardate order having opening stardate of 42976.1; and number 47 in production order, having production code number 40272-148.

Memory Alpha lists the clips seen as:

• The episode features clips from the following episodes in this order: "The Last Outpost", "Encounter at Farpoint", "The Dauphin", "The Icarus Factor", "Justice", "11001001", "Angel One", "Up The Long Ladder", "Skin of Evil", "The Child", "A Matter Of Honor", "Conspiracy", "Symbiosis", "The Last Outpost", "Skin of Evil", "11001001", "Heart of Glory", "Conspiracy", "The Last Outpost", "Symbiosis", "Conspiracy", "11001001", "The Naked Now", "Skin of Evil", "A Matter Of Honor", "11001001", "Loud As A Whisper", "A Matter Of Honor", "11001001", "Unnatural Selection", "11001001", "Heart of Glory", "Conspiracy", "11001001", "The Naked Now", "Skin of Evil" (audio only). Counting them together it makes the use of 17 episodes of the first two seasons.

The order in which those episodes happen is an important question. If a later episode is a sequel to one episode, such as "Symbiosis", for example, it must also be a sequel to all the other episodes in this group which happen before "Symbiosis", but it doesn't have to be a sequel to any episodes in this group which happen after "Symbiosis" - it might happen in an alternate universe which diverges from the universes of those episodes after "Symbiosis".

There are several different orders for TNG episodes, but the three most common ways to order them are production order, broadcast order, and stardate order.

In production order:
First season:
101-102. or 1. "Encounter at Farpoint".
40271-103. or 2."The Naked Now".
40271-107. or 6. "The Last Outpost" .
40271-109. or 8. "Justice".
40271-115. or 14. "Angel One".
40271-116. or 15. "11001001" .
40271-120. or 19. "Heart of Glory" .
40271-122. or 21. "Skin of Evil".
40271-123. or 22. "Symbiosis".
70271-125. or 24. "Conspiracy".
Second Season:
40272-127. or 26. "The Child".
40272-132. or 31. "Loud as a Whisper".
40272-133. or 32. "Unnatural selection".
40272-134. or 33. "A Matter of Honor".
40272-136. or 35. "The Dauphin".
40272-140. or 39. "The Icarus Factor".
40272-144. or 43. "Up the Long Ladder".
40272-148. or 47. "Shades of Gray".

In broadcast order:
First season:
1. "Encounter at Farpoint" September 9, 1987.
3. "The Naked Now" October 5, 1987.
5. "The Last Outpost" October 19, 1987.
8. "Justice" November 9, 1987.
14. "Angel One" January 25, 1988.
15. "11001001" February 1, 1988.
20. "Heart of Glory" March 21, 1988.
22. "Symbiosis" April 18, 1988.
23. "Skin of Evil" April 25, 1988.
25. "Conspiracy" May 9, 1988.
Second season:
27. "The Child" November 21, 1988.
31. "Loud as a Whisper" January 9, 1989.
33. "Unnatural selection" January 30, 1989.
34. "A Matter of Honor" February 6, 1989.
36. "The Dauphin" February 20, 1989.
40. "The Icarus Factor" April 24, 1989.
44. "Up the Long Ladder" May 24, 1989.
48. "Shades of Gray" July 17, 1989.

In stardate order:
First season:
1. "Encounter at Farpoint" 41153.7.
2. "The Naked Now" 41209.2.
6. "Justice" 41255.6.
10. "11001001" 41365.9
11. "The Last Outpost" 41386.4.
13. "Heart of Glory" 41503.7.
16. "Skin of Evil" 41601.3.
17. "Angel One" 41636.9.
??. "Symbiosis" None given.
20."Conspiracy" 41775.5
Second Season:
27. "The Child" 42073.1.
32. "Loud as a Whisper" 42477.2.
33. "Unnatural selection" 42494.8.
34. "A Matter of Honor" 42506.5.
36. "The Dauphin" 42568.8.
40. "The Icarus Factor" 42686.4.
44. "Up the Long Ladder" 42823.2.
48. "Shades of Gray" 42976.1.

In the first season there were considerable differences between production order, broadcast order, and stardate order, but in the second and later seasons almost every episode was in the same order by production and broadcast order, and the episodes which weren't in the same order by stardate order were almost entirely the ones which didn't have stardates.

 

[MAGolding]

There were several first season of TNG episodes that were sequels to each other.

"Conspiracy", stardate 41775.5, was a sequel to "Coming of Age", stardate 41416.2. "Coming of Age" mentions events in, or similar to, "Where No One Has Gone before", stardate 41263.1, "The Battle", stardate 41723.9, and "Justice" 41255.6, as well as either "The Naked Now", stardate 41209.2 or "Angel One" stardate 41636.9.

in "Coming of Age" (where Wesley meets a Benzite named Mordoc):

REMMICK: So, you are saying Captain Picard had no control over this vessel. He handed it over to Kosinski, who took the entire crew to the edge of the universe.
LAFORGE: No, sir. That's not what I'm saying. Now, Kosinski was sent by Starfleet to improve our warp drive system. Captain Picard was ordered to take him aboard.

So "Coming of Age" is a sequel to "Where No One Has Gone Before".

REMMICK: Do you believe the captain is emotionally and psychologically fit for command of this starship? There is nothing in his history or his personality that would suggest mental lapses?
TROI: Nothing.
REMMICK: Not even the Ferengi incident with his old ship, the Stargazer?
TROI: He was being controlled by a mind altering machine, Commander. Without his knowledge.
REMMICK: I would call that a mental lapse.

So "Coming of Age" is a sequel to "The Battle".

REMMICK: Just how did this contaminant get aboard the ship?
WORF: By accident, sir.

So "Coming of Age" should be a sequel to either "The Naked Now" or "Angel One". Memory Alpha says that Remmick makes reference to the events of "The Naked Now", "Justice", "Where No One Has Gone Before", and "The Battle".

REMMICK: Then you confirm the accuracy of the log report. You violated the Prime Directive with the Edo. You deliberately interfered with their laws.
PICARD: Yes. It's exactly as I explained it in the log records.

So "Coming of Age" is a sequel to "Justice".

And in "Conspiracy":

RIKER: There's no proof of anything.
PICARD: The last time I saw Admiral Quinn he tried to warn me about a subversion within the Federation. Then Walker tried, and he's dead.
RIKER: Subversion? Personally, I don't believe this conspiracy theory.

So "Conspiracy" is clearly a sequel to "Coming of Age".

In production order the episodes are:
42701-103, or 2. "The Naked Now"
42701-106, or 5. "Where No One has Gone Before"
42701-110, or 9. "The Battle"
42701-109, or 8. "Justice"
42701-115, or 14. "Angel One"
42701-119, or 18. "Coming of Age"
42701-125, or 24. "Conspiracy".

In airdate or broadcast order the episodes are:

3. "The Naked Now" October 5, 1987.
6. "Where No One has Gone Before" October 26, 1987.
8. "Justice" November 9, 1987.
9. "The Battle" November 16, 1987.
14. "Angel One" January 25, 1988.
19. "Coming of Age" March 14, 1988.
25. "Conspiracy". May 9, 1988.

In stardate order the episodes are:

2. "The Naked Now" 41209.2
6. "Justice" 41255.6.
7. "Where No One has Gone Before" 41263.1.
12. "Coming of Age" 41416.2.
18. "Angel One" 41636.9.
20. "The Battle" 41723.9.
21. "Conspiracy". 41775.5.

Note that "Shades of Gray" is also a sequel to "The Naked Now", "Justice", "Angel One", and Conspiracy".

Therefore one can combine both lists and say that "Conspiracy" is a sequel to "Encounter at Farpoint", "The Naked Now", "Where No One Has Gone Before", "Justice", "11001001", "The Last Outpost", "Heart of Glory", "Skin of Evil", "Angel One", "Symbiosis", "The Battle", and "Coming of Age".

The second season episode "A Matter of Honor" is also a sequel to "Coming of Age". In "A Matter of Honor" a Benzite boards the Enterprise during an exchange program.

WESLEY: Mordoc, what are you doing here? You couldn't have graduated from the Academy already.
MENDON: I am not Mordoc. I am Mendon. Ensign Mendon from the planet Benzar.
WESLEY: Sorry. It's a friend of mine. You look just like him.
MENDON: We are from the same geostructure. Naturally we look alike.

In "A Matter of Honor" Riker also serves as an exchange officer on the Klingon ship Pagh. And in the third season "Sins of the Father":

Captain's log, Stardate 43685.2 As part of an exchange programme, we're taking aboard a Klingon officer to return the recent visit of Commander Riker to the cruiser Pagh.

And the Klingon officer turns out to be Kurn, Worf's long lost brother, who wants Worf to fight for their family honor.

So the whole Worf Klingon story arc is a sequel to the first season episodes that "Conspiracy" is a sequel to.

Since the second season episodes "The Child", "Loud as a Whisper", "Unnatural Selection", and "A Matter of Honor" are all prequels to "Shades of Gray", and since "Loud as a Whisper" and "Unnatural Selection" are between "The Child" and "A Matter of Honor" in production order, airdate order, and stardate order, it seems very likely that "A Matter of Honor" is also a sequel to "The Child", "Loud as a Whisper", and "Unnatural Selection".

But although "Shades of Gray" and "Sins of the Father" are both sequels to "A Matter of Evidence", there is no available information to determine whether "The Dauphin", "The Icarus Factor", "Up the Long Ladder", and "Shades of Gray" - or one or more of those episodes - happen in the same alternate universe as "Sins of the Father" and the episodes in Worf's Klingon Story arc.

.

 

[cooleddie74]

 

[thribs]

You have multiple comic universes, the novelVerse, Prime Universe, altered timeline Prime universe and the JJVerse.

 

[MAGolding]

It is my belief that the creators of more episodic and less serialized television shows generally considered each episode to be something which the protagonists might experience, instead of thinking that each and every episode happens to the protagonists one after the other in the same timeline. And this attitude can be put in science fictional terms for an episodic science fiction television series by imagining that each and every episode happens in an alternate universe with itself (and the pilot episode if any) , and separate from the alternate universes of every other episode - except for a few episodes which are sequels to other episodes and thus happen in the same alternate universe.

And I quote from my post here https://moviechat.org/tt0050037/Maverick/5c943dd3be89fc07f659a340/Some-Maverick-Chronology as an example of Television's approach to chronology in the late 1950s and early 1960s:

"Ghost Rider", 13 October 1967, the fourth episode of the first season, is set in White Rock, a town that seems to be in Texas since Mary Shane mentions traveling from Montana to Texas. Bret Maverick meets Mary Shane one night, and then is told that Mary died nine days ago. The next morning Bret rides out to where he saw her last with his coat, and finds his coat, and also sees her tombstone saying that she died on June 3, 1872. So Bret should meet Mary on June 12, and the episode should continue on June 13 and 14, 1872.

"The Jeweled Gun", 24 November 1957, the tenth episode of the first season, features a funeral with a tombstone with a death date in 1876, and narration saying that the funeral was on a Wednesday afternoon in May, 1876, which means that the funeral should have happened May 3, 10, 17, 24, or 31, 1876.

The third episode of season two, ""Alias Bart Maverick", 5 October 1858, has Gentleman Jack Darby and Cindy Lou Brown flee through Sioux territory with Bart Maverick in pursuit. This is very probably the trip to Deadwood mentioned in "Passage to Fort Doom", and so should happen after Deadwood was founded in early 1876 and before the later episode in 1878.

The twenty third episode of season two, "Passage to Fort Doom", 8 March 1959, shows tombstones for two characters killed near the end showing they died in June, 1878. Bart Maverick and Cindy Lou Brown separately join a wagon train headed for Deadwood in the Black Hills. And they say that they have gone to Deadwood together once before.

Episode seven of season three, "Full House", had Bret Maverick meet a bunch of famous western outlaws. The only year when the criminal careers of seven of those outlaws overlapped was 1878, so "Full House" should happen in 1878. Except that the eighth outlaw, Cole Younger, was arrested and in jail late in 1876 and didn't get out of prison until 1901, when the other outlaws were dead or retired. So "Full House" could only happen in the wild west and not the real west of history.

Episode nine of season three, "The Ghost Soldiers", 8 November, 1959, happens after the Black Hills Gold Rush began in late 1874 and when people fear that a war could break out with the Sioux Indians, making it before the Great Sioux War began in March 1876 - at least if would if it happened in the real west instead of the reel west.

Episode eleven in season three, "A Fellow's Brother", 22 November 1959, involves several persons seeking revenge for their brother's death, according to the "code of the west". At least the code followed in this episode. The tombstone of one of those recently murdered brothers has a death date of 1875.

So in season three both "The Ghost Soldiers" and "A Fellow's Brother" seem to happen in 1875, which is the year before the first season episode "The Jeweled Gun" happening in May, 1876. And Bart Maverick appears in both "The Jeweled Gun" and "A Fellow's Brother", proving that Bart's episodes were not aired in fictional date order.

The seventeenth episode in the fourth season, "Family Pride", 8 January 1961, allegedly happens in 1875. Wikipedia's list of episodes says: "With Karl Swenson as a genial general, Denver Pyle as a blackthorn stick-wielding Irishman, and Stacy Keach, Sr. as a sheriff. An early plot point involves standard time, which was not introduced to the United States until 1883, eight years after the 1875 setting for this episode."

So "Family Pride" should happen a year before "The Jeweled Gun" which aired three seasons earlier.

Episode 23 of season 4, "Flood's Folly", 19 February 1961, begins with Beau Maverick travelling through mountain en route to Denver, and thus should be in western Colorado. A snowstorm forces Beau to seek refuge in an almost deserted mountain hotel, the titular "Flood's Folly". The backside of a jigsaw puzzle is signed and dated in 1875 - June 1875 I think - and that is said to be a year earlier, putting the episode sometime in 1876.

Therefore, the fictional dates of Maverick episodes don't happen in the order that the episodes were produced and broadcast, but instead jump around the decade of the 1870s. And no doubt as I watch other Maverick episodes I will notice other examples of that.

Furthermore, the 20th episode in the third season, "Guatemala City", 31 January 1960, happens from January to May, June, or July in an unspecified year. Since it involves trips from San Francisco to Guatemala City, Guatemala, a length of four to seven months seems quite reasonable. If some Maverick episodes take up months of fictional time, fitting all of them into just a few years of fictional time could be impossible.

So if the Maverick series is a typical example, the creators of episodic television in the 1850s and 1960s didn't put a lot of stress on convincing the audience that the episodes happen one after another in a single universes instead of mostly happening in their own alternate universes. They didn't even bother to make an effort to convince the audience that the fictional order of the episodes corresponded to the order they were broadcast in.

So it seems to me that thinking that most of the episodes of an episodic television series happen in their own separate alternate universes makes a lot of sense and doesn't necessarily violate the intentions of the creators.

 

[Mudd]

It is my belief that the creators of more episodic and less serialized television shows generally considered each episode to be something which the protagonists might experience, instead of thinking that each and every episode happens to the protagonists one after the other in the same timeline. And this attitude can be put in science fictional terms for an episodic science fiction television series by imagining that each and every episode happens in an alternate universe with itself (and the pilot episode if any) , and separate from the alternate universes of every other episode - except for a few episodes which are sequels to other episodes and thus happen in the same alternate universe.

And I quote from my post here https://moviechat.org/tt0050037/Maverick/5c943dd3be89fc07f659a340/Some-Maverick-Chronology as an example of Television's approach to chronology in the late 1950s and early 1960s:

























Furthermore, the 20th episode in the third season, "Guatemala City", 31 January 1960, happens from January to May, June, or July in an unspecified year. Since it involves trips from San Francisco to Guatemala City, Guatemala, a length of four to seven months seems quite reasonable. If some Maverick episodes take up months of fictional time, fitting all of them into just a few years of fictional time could be impossible.

So if the Maverick series is a typical example, the creators of episodic television in the 1850s and 1960s didn't put a lot of stress on convincing the audience that the episodes happen one after another in a single universes instead of mostly happening in their own alternate universes. They didn't even bother to make an effort to convince the audience that the fictional order of the episodes corresponded to the order they were broadcast in.

So it seems to me that thinking that most of the episodes of an episodic television series happen in their own separate alternate universes makes a lot of sense and doesn't necessarily violate the intentions of the creators.

Alternatively, the creators never confused fiction for reality and didn't expect their audiences to feel that need.

 

[Vger23]

Seems reasonable to me.

 

[Spot261]

It is my belief that the creators of more episodic and less serialized television shows generally considered each episode to be something which the protagonists might experience, instead of thinking that each and every episode happens to the protagonists one after the other in the same timeline. And this attitude can be put in science fictional terms for an episodic science fiction television series by imagining that each and every episode happens in an alternate universe with itself (and the pilot episode if any) , and separate from the alternate universes of every other episode - except for a few episodes which are sequels to other episodes and thus happen in the same alternate universe.

And I quote from my post here https://moviechat.org/tt0050037/Maverick/5c943dd3be89fc07f659a340/Some-Maverick-Chronology as an example of Television's approach to chronology in the late 1950s and early 1960s:

























Furthermore, the 20th episode in the third season, "Guatemala City", 31 January 1960, happens from January to May, June, or July in an unspecified year. Since it involves trips from San Francisco to Guatemala City, Guatemala, a length of four to seven months seems quite reasonable. If some Maverick episodes take up months of fictional time, fitting all of them into just a few years of fictional time could be impossible.

So if the Maverick series is a typical example, the creators of episodic television in the 1850s and 1960s didn't put a lot of stress on convincing the audience that the episodes happen one after another in a single universes instead of mostly happening in their own alternate universes. They didn't even bother to make an effort to convince the audience that the fictional order of the episodes corresponded to the order they were broadcast in.

So it seems to me that thinking that most of the episodes of an episodic television series happen in their own separate alternate universes makes a lot of sense and doesn't necessarily violate the intentions of the creators.

Sorry, could you rephrase that for those of us who don't speak native Tamarian or communicate using cryptic crossword clues?

 

[Prax]

Also, in the Wounded, they reference Best of Both Worlds, and in the Defector, they reference some other Romulan episodes.

I bet there's a reference in almost every episode to some other episode. It's almost as if every episode takes place... all in the same universe! Amazing!

 

[ScottJ85]

Overthinking it a bit.

 

[Donald G]

Overthinking it a bit.

For historical context, Mr. Golding's article postulating that many episodes of STAR TREK take place in closely related alternate universes, and that such could be an explanation for continuity errors and inconsistencies, "Alternate Universes in STAR TREK," was published in BEST OF TREK 3 in January 1981, and, presumably, many months before that in Irwin and Love's TREK fanzine.

He has obviously been thinking on this issue for a very long time.

It was an interesting and provocative line of thought in 1981 . . . and, after "Parallels," the Kelvin Timeline, and DISCOVERY, perhaps worth revisiting as a concept.

But trying to work out specifically which episodes belong to which specific hypothetical alternate universe of timeline is perhaps an exercise best left to the individual.

 

[cooleddie74]

At this point this thread might be happening in an alternate timeline.

 

[Mysterion]

At this point this thread might be happening in an alternate timeline.

Does this mean I have to grow a goatee now?

 

[cooleddie74]

HAVE to? No.

If you know what's good for you? YES.